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Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

nytimes.com

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Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#141

Post by someothherguyy »

summermusic wrote: post #12

I can see the 2040 study already: “Schoolchildren who did not use AI in primary school show higher outcomes”

a lot of these studies with technology, etc, are concerned with outcomes in primary/secondary(high) school, which, tbf, no one gives a fuck about, as life outcomes are what matters

a great harm in human society is overconfident extrapolation, especially when treating humans as analogous to weather elements

however, there is literature that explores this aspect, but not relative to what we know right now (and if it is a global trait, does it matter at the general population level?)

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#143

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lukeschlather wrote: post #140
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In 5 years I don't think you're going to be able to get away from LLMs if you care about correctness Okay. Let’s revisit this in five years. In the meantime, let’s not experiment on our kids.

I'm not talking about future capabilities, I'm saying it will cease to be arguable within 5 years. We can't just bury our heads in the sand. Kids are going to need to engage with this directly, and it cannot wait until after they graduate high school. I'm not saying give up doing things by hand, but also everyone needs to learn to work with AI to do advanced math. It's not one or the other, it has to be both.

> We can't just bury our heads in the sand. Kids are going to need to engage with this

This was the same argument made for smartphones in schools.

> it cannot wait until after they graduate high school

I have a strong opinion about technology in early education. The evidence is more mixed for high-school students—I don’t have a view there.

If the argument is no AI in elementary or middle school, and controller introduction in high school, I could get on board with that as long as the solution is being developed by the state and not one of the AI companies or tech giants.

> everyone needs to learn to work with AI to do advanced math

Most people don’t need to know advanced math. Our problem, currently, is college students being unable to do basic math. Or hold attention through a book.

> it has to be both

Why? AI isn’t a mature technology. I’m not convinced someone who was chatting with ChatGPT in 2023 is more productive with AI, today, than someone who started building agentic workflows into their processes six months ago.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#144

Post by camkego »

SoftTalker wrote: post #51
bugbull wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were certainly integral solving validators online when I took calculus in high school. At some point I gave up and just used that, because “the money is in web application development, I don’t need that calculus stuff”. Big regret. Edit: For reference, the regret came when I tried to do some RF related projects on the side. Those projects would likely have gone somewhere if I put some effort into even the basic…

I have never needed calculus since leaving university, nearly 40 year ago. If you're not in hard engineering, you probably won't (and if you are, you'll get to use all the computer assisting tools you want).

Calculus can get pretty heavy, but I really value the comfort it gave me of the concepts of velocity and acceleration, (not to speak of higher orders) of which I am sure I wouldn’t understand nearly as well without the calculus background. I’m sure for most of HN velocity and acceleration, etc seem like super basic concepts, but I just don’t think I could apply the mental models as easily as before I took calculus.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#145

Post by jjav »

legitster wrote: post #26

Even if you're pro-AI, there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point. It seems like a no-brainer to have people learn on hammers before moving them to nailguns. I can't help but think of this Chesterton Quote: "It is, on the contrary, a thing analogous to writing one's own love-letters or blowing one's own nose. These things we want a man to do for himself, even if he does them badly…

> It seems like a no-brainer to have people learn on hammers

When I was young I attended a karate dojo. One interaction that always stayed with me was when someone asked why the guy with a black belt could do the katas differently.

The sensei answered that when learning, your task is to learn to do the katas perfectly. As a black belt, you have amply demonstrated that, so now your task is to be creative and build on the foundations.

I liked that answer, it applies to everything. Learn the basics before you are allowed to question them. After that, you must question them.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#147

Post by pj_mukh »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #143
lukeschlather wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about future capabilities, I'm saying it will cease to be arguable within 5 years. We can't just bury our heads in the sand. Kids are going to need to engage with this directly, and it cannot wait until after they graduate high school. I'm not saying give up doing things by hand, but also everyone needs to learn to work with AI to do advanced math. It's not one or the other, it has to be both.

> We can't just bury our heads in the sand. Kids are going to need to engage with this This was the same argument made for smartphones in schools. > it cannot wait until after they graduate high school I have a strong opinion about technology in early education. The evidence is more mixed for high-school students—I don’t have a view there. If the argument is no AI in elementary or middle school, and controller introd…

>>solution is being developed by the state

I'm curious, how do you envision this development happening? You're (presumably) calling for all school boards to ban any AI developed anything in classrooms like NY just did.

Are you expecting public universities to perhaps carry out studies first?

For reference, I think putting a tablet with an AI in front of kids to talk to is a silly boogeyman most people seem to be talking about in this thread. My vision was always teacher tooling that would greatly expand the teachers ability to develop individualized curriculum and test a kids progress in a classroom etc. But calling for such blanket bans means we can't even test any of this..anywhere.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#148

Post by DonsDiscountGas »

legitster wrote: post #26

Even if you're pro-AI, there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point. It seems like a no-brainer to have people learn on hammers before moving them to nailguns. I can't help but think of this Chesterton Quote: "It is, on the contrary, a thing analogous to writing one's own love-letters or blowing one's own nose. These things we want a man to do for himself, even if he does them badly…

We typically leave decisions like that up to teachers though, not the mayor. So they can vary what's allowed on different assignments.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#149

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

tw04 wrote: post #74
pj_mukh wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so we're clear, phones were already banned in classrooms. "Personal" use of AI within a classroom to help someone like a personal calculator or a personal "cheating aid" was already banned. This bans it from all teaching tools and materials as well.

Good? The amount of just flat out wrong information the average LLM spits out makes it unfit for education IMO. I can’t imagine asking teachers to have to personally vet every single lesson plan to ensure an AI wasn’t hallucinating when producing the content.

I agree, but there's also teachers who give out wrong information too. Often it's when the teacher doesn't have a deep understanding of the topic and are just repeating what they've heard (or misheard) and they will typically compound the issue by not allowing curious questioning.

There's also the issue that modern teachers are more like exam coaches rather than trying to actually teach kids.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#150

Post by iLoveOncall »

adolfojp wrote: post #66
iLoveOncall wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're literally stealing from yourself by paying for tuition and not getting any benefit from it besides a piece of paper that won't hold to scrutiny once someone asks you to code something on an interview or in a company. Intern quality at my FAANG has been dreadful for the past year, and new grads aren't much better. Most don't pass probation nowadays.

I figure this is quickly becoming an either use steroids for bodybuilding competitions even if you're against them or opt out of competing kind of situation.

It's more like showing up to the gym with a fake muscle suit and then everyone can see you can't lift shit.
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