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Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

nytimes.com

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Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#131

Post by stouset »

donatj wrote: post #69
bugbull wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were certainly integral solving validators online when I took calculus in high school. At some point I gave up and just used that, because “the money is in web application development, I don’t need that calculus stuff”. Big regret. Edit: For reference, the regret came when I tried to do some RF related projects on the side. Those projects would likely have gone somewhere if I put some effort into even the basic…

In 2004 I had a program on my TI-89 "Calculus Made Easy". It would do basically everything AND show your work. Someone gave it to me about 2/3's of the way through Calc 1. I truly regret having become dependent on it. I studied enough to know roughly what I was doing but not enough to not be dependent. I suspect learning with AI is the same sort of thing. You're learning, but you're not deep learning .

As a counterpoint, I am self-studying physics while relearning the calculus and math I took in undergrad.

AI has been immensely valuable, but I suspect only so because I am intrinsically motivated to learn this material. When I make errors in solving problems due to a confusion in understanding, it can help me work through the problem the same way a TA would, without having to wait and where I can ask a million clarifying questions until the idea is concrete in my mind.

Could I abuse it to just answer questions for me? Absolutely. But since that’s at odds with my actual goal, I don’t.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#132

Post by zzo38computer »

ytoawwhra92 wrote: post #128
legitster wrote: post #26

Even if you're pro-AI, there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point. It seems like a no-brainer to have people learn on hammers before moving them to nailguns. I can't help but think of this Chesterton Quote: "It is, on the contrary, a thing analogous to writing one's own love-letters or blowing one's own nose. These things we want a man to do for himself, even if he does them badly…

> there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point Yeah, a bad reason. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-10/are-calculators-affec... > In a 1997 review of the extent to which calculators were being used in schools, numerous studies were examined that indicated the use of calculators at primary levels had no detrimental effects on students' arithmetic abilities. > Unfortunately, the re…

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Marilyn vos Savant had said that it is acceptable to use a calculator when learing arithmetic (I do not remember the reason given) but that clocks should not be used to learn time. (I might be mistaken, since I do not remember for sure.)

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#133

Post by consumer451 »

rayiner wrote: post #127
consumer451 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't Zurich far richer per-capita than NYC? I would think there is more than just what happens in a school that dictates the testing outcomes.

NYC median income is about $80,000, while Zurich is $95,000. But my test-score comparison is between NYC and the U.S. national average. I'm just using Zurich as a data point for how much a rich, expensive non-U.S. city spends on education.

I see that data is correct, but let's zoom in. There are lots of private schools for the richer, and that might help lead to this fact regarding NYC public school students:

> 75.3 percent were economically disadvantaged [0]

75.3% = "if their family participates in specific economic assistance programs or meets distinct low-income thresholds."

[0] https://www.schools.nyc.gov/about-us/reports/nycps-data-at-a...

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#135

Post by recursivecaveat »

zzo38computer wrote: post #132
ytoawwhra92 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point Yeah, a bad reason. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-10/are-calculators-affec... > In a 1997 review of the extent to which calculators were being used in schools, numerous studies were examined that indicated the use of calculators at primary levels had no detrimental effects on students' arithmetic abilities. > Unfortunately, the re…

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Marilyn vos Savant had said that it is acceptable to use a calculator when learing arithmetic (I do not remember the reason given) but that clocks should not be used to learn time. (I might be mistaken, since I do not remember for sure.)

I wasn't able to find anything about (analog I presume) clocks for education, but it sounds like she is against calculators for elementary arithmetic education: https://parade.com/345575/marilynvossavant/why-math-students...

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#137

Post by zzo38computer »

recursivecaveat wrote: post #135
zzo38computer wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Marilyn vos Savant had said that it is acceptable to use a calculator when learing arithmetic (I do not remember the reason given) but that clocks should not be used to learn time. (I might be mistaken, since I do not remember for sure.)

I wasn't able to find anything about (analog I presume) clocks for education, but it sounds like she is against calculators for elementary arithmetic education: https://parade.com/345575/marilynvossavant/why-math-students...

I might have misremembered then, or maybe it was someone else.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#138

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lukeschlather wrote: post #81
tw04 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good? The amount of just flat out wrong information the average LLM spits out makes it unfit for education IMO. I can’t imagine asking teachers to have to personally vet every single lesson plan to ensure an AI wasn’t hallucinating when producing the content.

Frontier LLMs with Internet search are different beasts than what you're describing as an average LLM. In 5 years I don't think you're going to be able to get away from LLMs if you care about correctness, and we're already to the point where if a calculation matters I want an LLM to check my math.

> In 5 years I don't think you're going to be able to get away from LLMs if you care about correctness

Okay. Let’s revisit this in five years. In the meantime, let’s not experiment on our kids.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#140

Post by lukeschlather »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138
lukeschlather wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frontier LLMs with Internet search are different beasts than what you're describing as an average LLM. In 5 years I don't think you're going to be able to get away from LLMs if you care about correctness, and we're already to the point where if a calculation matters I want an LLM to check my math.

> In 5 years I don't think you're going to be able to get away from LLMs if you care about correctness Okay. Let’s revisit this in five years. In the meantime, let’s not experiment on our kids.

I'm not talking about future capabilities, I'm saying it will cease to be arguable within 5 years. We can't just bury our heads in the sand. Kids are going to need to engage with this directly, and it cannot wait until after they graduate high school. I'm not saying give up doing things by hand, but also everyone needs to learn to work with AI to do advanced math. It's not one or the other, it has to be both.
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