Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 179 posts

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#161

Post by [deleted] »

rigrassm wrote: post #160
delichon wrote: post #82

There are some truly excellent initiatives leveraging AI as teachers, rather than as cognitive crutches, and it's important that they are not tossed out with the bathwater. Math Academy is one. I hope for a Cambrian explosion of variations of this approach. Imagine a resourceful and infinitely patient tutor guiding you through the most difficult concepts of your education, deeply attentive to your signals about flaws…

> There are some truly excellent initiatives leveraging AI as teachers, rather than as cognitive crutches, and it's important that they are not tossed out with the bathwater. It takes years to understand the effects of the changes we implement in our school systems and curriculums and this attitude of change it now and hope for the best later is what's gotten us to a point where high school students can't read at a h…

[deleted]

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#162

Post by senordevnyc »

pj_mukh wrote: post #37

The dirty secret on NYC schools is that the upper-middle class tends to send their kids to private schools unless they can get their kids into some gifted/talented public schools. The real experimentation on what tools will and will not work is happening there under the watchful eye of wealthy hyper-involved (see: comfy jobs w/ adequate spare time) parents. I don't know what level of digital tools is best for which t…

This is in no way a secret…

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#163

Post by rich_sasha »

hombre_fatal wrote: post #35
legitster wrote: post #26

Even if you're pro-AI, there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point. It seems like a no-brainer to have people learn on hammers before moving them to nailguns. I can't help but think of this Chesterton Quote: "It is, on the contrary, a thing analogous to writing one's own love-letters or blowing one's own nose. These things we want a man to do for himself, even if he does them badly…

I can’t imagine how many shortcuts I would have taken as a kid/teen or stressed uni student if AI were an option. I can see even a well-meaning student stuck in this aspirational cycle of “I’ll do it myself next time, but right now I just want to catch up.”

That’s one of the tragedies of AI to me. I fear that apart from everything else, it will make us collectively stupid and lazy.

I see this everywhere, with people seemingly losing the ability to use the tiniest amount of intellect or mental effort, if only AI can give something that vaguely looks like it might be the answer. Even if the output is great and AI is a great force for the better, and we will all share in its glorious outputs - we’ll degenerate into a lazy, stupid mass unable to reliably count our own fingers.

And that’s a future to be afraid of.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#164

Post by esalman »

hgoel wrote: post #27
protimewaster wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's limited to "younger students", and keeping younger students away from computers also isn't a bad idea IMO.

Keeping younger students away from computers is dumb, but we do need to go back to the basic computer literacy classes of the early/mid 2000s, e.g. typing, basics of desktop operating systems like the filesystem, using word, powerpoint etc. It's appalling how lacking high schoolers seem to be in these kinds of skills.

> Keeping younger students away from computers is dumb

No. There's proven research that shows reading a book or writing with a pen or pencil is much more stimulating and beneficial compared to looking at a screen or tapping/typing on it.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#165

Post by anonymars »

protimewaster wrote: post #56
anonymars wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think young exposure to real computers (where you create, and have to figure things out; not consumption machines) provides access to a level of fluency that is otherwise difficult or impossible to achieve, just like many other skills (language, music...)

I think that can be done without having them sit in front of a computer or even really using a computer, though. Lots of kids have stories about wandering over to a college campus when they were in middle school, wandering into a room with the keypunch machines, and learning about computers that way. Very few of those kids directly used a computer, but they learned it anyway.

How prevalent do you think are children that live within wandering distance of a college that lets random children enter and use their computers?

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#166

Post by johnnyanmac »

rich_sasha wrote: post #163
hombre_fatal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t imagine how many shortcuts I would have taken as a kid/teen or stressed uni student if AI were an option. I can see even a well-meaning student stuck in this aspirational cycle of “I’ll do it myself next time, but right now I just want to catch up.”

That’s one of the tragedies of AI to me. I fear that apart from everything else, it will make us collectively stupid and lazy. I see this everywhere, with people seemingly losing the ability to use the tiniest amount of intellect or mental effort, if only AI can give something that vaguely looks like it might be the answer. Even if the output is great and AI is a great force for the better, and we will all share in i…

I laughed at the idea of Wall-E as a kid. At least the "humans give up all autonomy and wheel around in sci-fi carts served by an AI" (as a 10YO I was neutral to the environmentalist message).

Now, 20 years later, I see the underpinnings of this being formed in real time. I did not heed the warnings.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#167

Post by johnnyanmac »

SoftTalker wrote: post #51
bugbull wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were certainly integral solving validators online when I took calculus in high school. At some point I gave up and just used that, because “the money is in web application development, I don’t need that calculus stuff”. Big regret. Edit: For reference, the regret came when I tried to do some RF related projects on the side. Those projects would likely have gone somewhere if I put some effort into even the basic…

I have never needed calculus since leaving university, nearly 40 year ago. If you're not in hard engineering, you probably won't (and if you are, you'll get to use all the computer assisting tools you want).

> if you are, you'll get to use all the computer assisting tools you want

I've done work on fluid simulations. It sure would have been nice to understand the buttons being pushed so I can better validate what's going on.

And I think I did well in calculus. Just not "mastery of multi-variable calculus to transform fluid dynamics formulas into software" well.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#168

Post by johnnyanmac »

lukeschlather wrote: post #140
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In 5 years I don't think you're going to be able to get away from LLMs if you care about correctness Okay. Let’s revisit this in five years. In the meantime, let’s not experiment on our kids.

I'm not talking about future capabilities, I'm saying it will cease to be arguable within 5 years. We can't just bury our heads in the sand. Kids are going to need to engage with this directly, and it cannot wait until after they graduate high school. I'm not saying give up doing things by hand, but also everyone needs to learn to work with AI to do advanced math. It's not one or the other, it has to be both.

>I'm not talking about future capabilities, I'm saying it will cease to be arguable within 5 years

So... talking about future capabilities.

>Kids are going to need to engage with this directly

Just to get this straight: are you the kind of person to give your 1st grader a calculator and say "just use this. you won't ever have to add numbers by hand anyway"? So much metaphors of AI go around calculators, but this is a problems we solved decades ago.

>everyone needs to learn to work with AI to do advanced math

We have so much complaints over the application of math as is. Now you're arguing that it's useful again because we can offload it to an AI?

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#169

Post by johnnyanmac »

ytoawwhra92 wrote: post #128
legitster wrote: post #26

Even if you're pro-AI, there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point. It seems like a no-brainer to have people learn on hammers before moving them to nailguns. I can't help but think of this Chesterton Quote: "It is, on the contrary, a thing analogous to writing one's own love-letters or blowing one's own nose. These things we want a man to do for himself, even if he does them badly…

> there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point Yeah, a bad reason. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-10/are-calculators-affec... > In a 1997 review of the extent to which calculators were being used in schools, numerous studies were examined that indicated the use of calculators at primary levels had no detrimental effects on students' arithmetic abilities. > Unfortunately, the re…

And you think a 9YO has the discipline to understand when a calculator is used for "checking work" compared to using it to answer their questions and get positive feedback?

That's the part this study seems to handwave. We don't need a full calculator ban, but very controlled usage is necessary.

Re: Mamdani bans AI in NYC schools

#170

Post by johnnyanmac »

skeptic_ai wrote: post #124
legitster wrote: post #26

Even if you're pro-AI, there's a reason calculators are banned from math classes until a certain point. It seems like a no-brainer to have people learn on hammers before moving them to nailguns. I can't help but think of this Chesterton Quote: "It is, on the contrary, a thing analogous to writing one's own love-letters or blowing one's own nose. These things we want a man to do for himself, even if he does them badly…

So why I Dont learn how semiconductors work before I do JavaScript? Or assembly code? I can cheat straight to JavaScript

>why I Dont learn how semiconductors work before I do JavaScript?

because you chose computer science/SWE instead of Computer Engineering. At least, those were in fact the differences in my programs at my alma mater.

even then, introductory assembly was a 200 level course at my school. we did in fact learn how assembly code worked to help better prep us for advanced software courses where we manage memory and develop domain knowledge.

Post reply on HN