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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#741

Post by customguy »

adamddev1 wrote: post #678
mstaoru wrote: post #580

I can add my anecdote to the language barrier points. At work we speak English, everybody speak English all the time, all docs are in English, all meetings are in English. There's an occasional German email every now and then but people will switch. When we go to a "team building" retreat, all the same teammates that happily chatted with us expats in English just switch to German 100%, full stop. You can come and sta…

Excellent anecdote. I'm not sure if you're making a judgement about their behavior at the team event. I'm an English native speaker, new in Germany, and learning German. I personally find it really annoying and awkward when other foreigners come into German social situations and expect or push them to speak English. - What right do I have as the foreigner to intrude and get them to speak English? - Social life in ano…

As a German, don't respect Germans who move abroad and never learn the local language because they "don't have to", either. I cut a lot more slack for people who come here, but I can't help but notice this sense of entitlement to Germany I don't see an equivalent to with other countries. There's at least one person in this thread who outright said nah, knowing English is enough, as if Germans better accept that. Honestly, wtf?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#742

Post by fallingbananna »

DStiego wrote: post #562
InfinityByTen wrote: post #556

It's interesting how quickly any discussion about immigrant/expat life in Germany becomes about language. That has to account for something. After my tenure of 11 years in the country, my impression is that there is a deeper sense of "us" v/s "them"; the language is the most PC way to express it. If you're in the category of "us" you don't complain about the taxes or things being closed on Sundays, because you're sup…

There's two things at play here: 1. Defensiveness; one could describe it as "Stockholm syndrome" 2. What outsiders don't understand about the language thing is that it's not about how much German you need to get along in daily life. That's a similar challenge everywhere in the world. The crux is that in Germany, correct use of the language is a social status thing , more so than in other places. Any person, whether G…

The point about correct use being a status thing is such a good point, that you almost never see mentioned, but definitely feel it.

Recently I saw a discussion on Reddit where the author made a minor mistake in the title, that sounds perfectly fine and understandable to me, as a non-native speaker. They used "Mit was" instead of "womit". And more than half the comments were people pointing out the mistake and making fun of the person due to it, rather than engage in the topic that was raised in the first place.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#743

Post by sdevonoes »

jonash54 wrote: post #726
rurp wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems weird to me that someone would even want to settle in a foreign country without a good understanding of the language and cultural basics. I've done some traveling in non-English speaking countries and it was a huge hurdle not being completely fluent in the local language. It just seems like common sense to me to dive in all the way if you are moving somewhere long term. I don't really see what a good salary…

Exactly. As a german i can say we don‘t care about your salary, we only really care about your language and culture. If you move to a foreign country, learn their language, it‘s literally the only way to integrate into a culture. Germans frown upon rich, tax-paying immigrants that don‘t try to learn german way more than they frown upon B1 speaking ones that don‘t have a job. It‘s about culture, not money. It‘s not th…

Doesn’t really match my experience. If you are non white and you go and look for an apartment in any big german city (because you shouldn’t move a small town if you are non white) then you have 2 options: you have money and can afford a slightly higher rent than average or you don’t have extra money and have to compete with the locals. You have very little chance to find something decent if you compete against the locals.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#744

Post by ragazzina »

It's interesting that the B1 language requirement is discussed here mostly in terms of fairness. Is it reasonable or not, to require an immigrant to speak the language of the country they're immigrating to?

Whether it's fair or not is trumped by how _easy_ it is. You can get a B1 German certification in a matter of months with SRS and cheap tutors online.

This is a B1 English question:

“This is a nice bathroom.” “Yes. It’s the one _ we’ve just redecorated.” a) when b) who c) which

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#745

Post by mstaoru »

customguy wrote: post #741
adamddev1 wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent anecdote. I'm not sure if you're making a judgement about their behavior at the team event. I'm an English native speaker, new in Germany, and learning German. I personally find it really annoying and awkward when other foreigners come into German social situations and expect or push them to speak English. - What right do I have as the foreigner to intrude and get them to speak English? - Social life in ano…

As a German, don't respect Germans who move abroad and never learn the local language because they "don't have to", either. I cut a lot more slack for people who come here, but I can't help but notice this sense of entitlement to Germany I don't see an equivalent to with other countries. There's at least one person in this thread who outright said nah, knowing English is enough, as if Germans better accept that. Hone…

Let me play a bit of devil's advocate here. This is not what I really think but it's a point that has merit.

Germany is in deep demographic and economic crisis, mostly due to talent shortage. If it has any ambition to maintain being #3 economy (by GDP), while simultaneously paying cushy pensions to a growing pool of retirees, it must either very quickly build talent (but it has a very limited pool due to demographic), or accept high levels of immigration. The US is in better position because, let's face it, English is the widest spoken language professionally. If Germany's pitch is just "please come here to work for less money, speak German day #1, and enjoy batshit crazy bureaucracy with years to process residency", it's just not going to work. Something has to give.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#746

Post by fallingbananna »

trinix912 wrote: post #234
uludag wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well paid expats wearing a hijab, who definitely aren't refugees, will not be treated nicely in Germany. Lived and worked in Germany and saw it a lot. It's a low bar indeed to treat skilled labor coming to your country nicely that sadly Germany can't even pass.

You are kind of expected to adjust yourself to the culture of the country you’re immigrating to. If you fail (or refuse) to do so in the most obvious/visible ways possible (like clothing), I think you shouldn’t be surprised when people look at you weird because you look out of place.

I don't know about you, but I don't treat people worse just because they dress differently.

And similarly, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest OP is the wrong one for being treated worse for wearing clothes from their culture.

If you look out of place, you will get more looks, and that's it, that's where the line should end.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#747

Post by sdevonoes »

jeroenhd wrote: post #644
djaro wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, B1 is not even nearly fluent, on my B1 exam Spanish I had to roleplay with the examinator going to a store to return something after buying the wrong item. This is like, bare minimum of functioning. I cannot imagine living in a country for over a year and not taking the effort to lesrn the language.

If you speak English and live in an area where most others speak English, then it's not hard to get by without learning the local language. People who do that often find it difficult to make friends outside of expat circles who do the same, but it's perfectly possible to live like that.

Not just that, but for example, working as a software engineer in Germany for an English speaking company means your salary is gonna be p90 among the population.

Compare that to someone who doesn’t work in IT and needs to master the language to get a decent job. All in all, it’s better to speak English in Germany

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#748

Post by DStiego »

fallingbananna wrote: post #742
DStiego wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's two things at play here: 1. Defensiveness; one could describe it as "Stockholm syndrome" 2. What outsiders don't understand about the language thing is that it's not about how much German you need to get along in daily life. That's a similar challenge everywhere in the world. The crux is that in Germany, correct use of the language is a social status thing , more so than in other places. Any person, whether G…

The point about correct use being a status thing is such a good point, that you almost never see mentioned, but definitely feel it. Recently I saw a discussion on Reddit where the author made a minor mistake in the title, that sounds perfectly fine and understandable to me, as a non-native speaker. They used "Mit was" instead of "womit". And more than half the comments were people pointing out the mistake and making…

Yes. I don’t want to invalidate people’s bad experiences, but I think it’s a more general problem and not specifically xenophobia. What you describe can happen to anybody!

The same is true for speaking English, which is considered very high status in Germany. If someone has a strong German accent, they’ll be made fun of. I always find this ironic because the people laughing usually don’t speak much better. (Not that I would care; I love people’s accents.)

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#749

Post by customguy »

xienze wrote: post #115
dofm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Races don't exist on any biological level. Racists evidently do. Believing in the false construct of biological race doesn't necessarily make you a racist; it doesn't really even seem to be a precondition anymore. But it was the foundation for sociopolitical racism, so if the concept of race guides your thinking about people's characteristics, especially their non-physical characteristics, you are at least somewhat i…

> Races don't exist on any biological level. You sure about that? https://www.nmdp.org/get-involved/join-the-registry/ethnicit... > Finding the right donor for a patient isn’t simple. Donors and patients are matched largely based on genes called human leukocyte antigens (HLAs). These genes code for proteins—or markers—found on most of the cells in your body. When it comes to matching HLA types, a patient’s ethnic bac…

That article doesn't mention the word "race" once.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization)

> there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptions of race are untenable

Any educated person with access to the internet who never was even curious about this I'm suspicious of. If you don't arrive at it by the thought experiments a bored teenager might do, it takes like 5 minutes of reading, and then that's done.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#750

Post by bcye »

suddenlybananas wrote: post #647
bcye wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this twisting the knife in the wound? I wanted to say that they (and other people wearing hijabs) are part of German culture.

This is very bad faith and you know it.

It was in fact not, hence why I asked :/
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