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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#721

Post by graemep »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #581
throwaway2037 wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cambodia is blatantly racist In my experience, there is nothing special about Cambodia in this regard. You could substitute any poorly developed nation, and you would have similar results. If Cambodia had a GDP per capita similar to Japan/Korea/Taiwan, they would "suddenly" become less racist because they would be much more concerned with economics rather than ethnicity/religion.

I had to think about this. I don't think it's wealth that's the differentiator. I think it's partly colonialism and partly culture. > If Cambodia had a GDP per capita similar to Japan/Korea/Taiwan, they would "suddenly" become less racist Japan is also, famously, extremely racist. Probably to the same extent that Cambodia is, but I haven't been there so I can't compare. Colonialism has a lot to answer for in SE Asia.…

> Japan is also, famously, extremely racist.

seems to contradict

> I suspect a lot of the defensive patriotism there is a product of being so badly treated for so long.

Racism can also take different forms. India has the world's oldest and most deeply embedded racism, but westerners rarely even recognise it for what it is.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#722

Post by Schlagbohrer »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #258
FinnLobsien wrote: post #178

I‘m German, but I no longer live in Germany, so I can’t relate to the experience of immigrating to Germany. I think a big part of the issue is a certain German presumptuousness. There’s a general sense that Germany is a prosperous, influential country. The reason for that must be that things are done correctly in Germany. I think this is an inherited attitude that doesn’t really correspond to reality anymore as syste…

> that you can pay by card at market vendors When I (German) was on vacation in the Netherlands, I found it dystopic that you could often not pay cash, but had to use card. This "I don't want to be tracked" mentality is deeply ingrained into the feeling of many Germans. So, I would rather call this not a bug, but a feature.

Yes, I agree. Card-only, no cash allowed places are also discriminating against poor people who don't have bank accounts or who don't want to use a card, or who get paid in cash.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#723

Post by graemep »

exoverito wrote: post #575
throwaway2037 wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cambodia is blatantly racist In my experience, there is nothing special about Cambodia in this regard. You could substitute any poorly developed nation, and you would have similar results. If Cambodia had a GDP per capita similar to Japan/Korea/Taiwan, they would "suddenly" become less racist because they would be much more concerned with economics rather than ethnicity/religion.

It's human nature to be "racist" since people generally prefer to be with others similar to themselves. That can be multi-dimensional, ranging from values, cultures, tastes, but race is the most obvious and one of the major principal components of human experience. Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are effectively ethnostates and they've not had the cultural enrichment yet that America or Europe has faced. Notably, there is r…

> people generally prefer to be with others similar to themselves.

Similar how? Why skin colour rather than say eye colour? Why not similar language, culture, religion, politics...?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#724

Post by graemep »

fallingbananna wrote: post #653
BobbyTables2 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What other country looks appealing? I get the whole “speak the native language” but seems like the appealing countries speak a language most of the world doesn’t care about. The number of countries with English as the main/official language that are desirable and open to immigrants seems really small.

I was under the impression that English speaking countries are by far the most desirable for immigrants. Most people don't care that the current US, or UK governments are a mess, because grass isn't exactly greener back at home. And there are quite a few more English speaking countries that have their own issues, but don't get so much negative press online. (Ireland and Canada have housing crisis, but sound fine othe…

Ireland seems to be hostile to immigrants. Singapore is well run but not to everyone's taste. Are the others really any better than the UK?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#726

Post by jonash54 »

rurp wrote: post #263
dgs_sgd wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your perspective, but I was curious what B1 proficiency actually entails and this is what I found [1]: - understand the main points of clear standard speech on familiar topics such as work, school, or leisure - manage most situations that occur while traveling in German-speaking areas - produce simple, connected text on familiar subjects - describe experiences, events, dreams, hopes, and ambitions, and b…

It seems weird to me that someone would even want to settle in a foreign country without a good understanding of the language and cultural basics. I've done some traveling in non-English speaking countries and it was a huge hurdle not being completely fluent in the local language. It just seems like common sense to me to dive in all the way if you are moving somewhere long term. I don't really see what a good salary…

Exactly. As a german i can say we don‘t care about your salary, we only really care about your language and culture. If you move to a foreign country, learn their language, it‘s literally the only way to integrate into a culture. Germans frown upon rich, tax-paying immigrants that don‘t try to learn german way more than they frown upon B1 speaking ones that don‘t have a job. It‘s about culture, not money. It‘s not the US lol

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#727

Post by tsss »

stratocumulus0 wrote: post #641
bulbar wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you talking about refugees, not regular migration. People who migrate need to deposit thousands of Euros, at least when they come for training in health care sector (nurse or doctor). You can also come if you have an offer from a German company or a very good outlook to get one. In any case, you are not allowed to stay if you don't work for a longer period of time. I can't believe how many don't know about th…

In most cases it's not possible for a refugee who's already in Germany to gain a regular residence permit without going back to their country of origin and starting the entire immigration process from scratch. All this talk about refugees not wanting to integrate, and no one mentioning that there is no point for them to integrate whatsoever, if they are going to be kicked out eventually regardless of their merit.

You get German citizenship almost automatically after 5 years in the country just by having a job and a basic understanding of the language. Even without speaking the language you can get citizenship simply by going to school here for 4 years.

> no one mentioning that there is no point for them to integrate whatsoever

There is a point: They are GUESTS here and when you are a guest in someone's house, you better act respectfully.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#728

Post by NoLinkToMe »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

Could you also add your thoughts on whether you think a B1 level is a sensible requirement for permanent residence in any country?

Because that's what the post seems to boil down to, but you haven't opined on it (other than refusing to learn B1, which implies the answer somewhat).

B1 by the way is considered doable for a consistent parttime learner in 9 months, and 1-2 years for someone doing weekend studying. That's an average.

For a studious family with higher educational background making 200k a year (this is significantly above average in Germany), you've got both the IQ and the capital for tutoring to do better than average.

Seems like a sensible, useful, necessary and practical bar to set for permanent residence, to me.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#729

Post by graemep »

gib444 wrote: post #94
schnitzelstoat wrote: post #5

I lived there for around 6 months like 15 years ago so perhaps it's changed a lot since then. But even as an Englishman, it was very different to home. I remember the supermarket was shut all Sunday and was only open until 12 on the Saturday, and it shut early in the week too (at like 5pm or 6pm or something?) so by the time I'd got the train back home from work it was already closed. I had to get up early every Satu…

Have you visited London recently? Particularly east. It's got the unfriendliness but also complete total breakdown of the social contract and social decency Music and video calls without headphones on all transport all the time. Shoes and socks off on train seats. Zombies barging into you constantly. Nobody letting people off the train. Throwing rubbish on the ground. Leaving it on trains and buses. Vaping on the tub…

> Have you visited London recently?

I have and did not experience any of that. Not all that different from when I last lived there in the last 90s.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#730

Post by graemep »

gib444 wrote: post #411
NicuCalcea wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the breakdown of the social contract in London, but not with the unfriendliness. I've lived in the UK for eight years and have travelled to many parts of England and Wales. I've never felt as unwelcome in London as I do almost every time I leave it. Constant suspicious looks, questions about who I am and what the purpose of me being there is, the occasional downright xenophobia. To give you a recent exam…

I have experience in what you describe, as I live far from London in a place I'm not from. Yes it can be very insular and can take many years to even begin being treated like a local (it's not until you have a kid, so I'm told). I'm treated with suspicion too. A lot of it is 'not from here [the village/town/county]' (and not sounding like you're from here) rather than 'not white' or 'not from the UK' so I can't hard…

> I have experience in what you describe, as I live far from London in a place I'm not from.

Me too, but people have been pretty friendly and welcoming, and i have not been here long.

> A lot of it is 'not from here [the village/town/county]' (and not sounding like you're from here) rather than 'not white' or 'not from the UK' so I can't hard agree it's strictly xenophobia/racism etc.

People in the north seem to make a bigger deal me being a southerner (and my accent) than non-white. Of course there is a bias because expressing the former is a lot more socially acceptable.

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