Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

dw.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

451–460 of 891 posts

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#451

Post by aleph_minus_one »

torginus wrote: post #433
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one As a native German, I actually have difficulties with concepts like "identifying as [nationality]", "feeling like [nationality]" or "naturalization". I really would say these are concepts that US-Americans (or people who were "shaped" by US mentality) seem to deeply care about, but Germans very typically don't. So, my opinion/advice is: s…

I think what she meant that even if you live in Germany/work with German colleagues, basically you will enternally made to be felt that you are not one of them by all but the most liberally minded Germans (and even those are rare even in the big international cities). So your friend group (if you decide to have one, rather than concentrate on family), will consist of other expats/immigrants. Btw most Europeans are li…

> I think what she meant that even if you live in Germany/work with German colleagues, basically you will enternally made to be felt that you are not one of them by all but the most liberally minded Germans (and even those are rare even in the big international cities). So your friend group (if you decide to have one, rather than concentrate on family), will consist of other expats/immigrants.

Thanks for your interesting point.

Nevertheless, I think the situation is a little bit different:

Many Germans indeed also have the feeling "that [they] are not one of them", but I would say it is part of the German mentality to worry much less about that than in other countries.

A lot of connections at work are rather "communities of purpose" [English translation of "Zweckgemeinschaft(en)"], i.e. you work together because of a common goal/hobby/... which makes collaborations a really good idea.

I read somewhere that in the USA a lot more of the social life is centered around the work/company than in Germany. So, it is not untypical to get social connections at work, but this is only one way among many. I would even claim that the social connections from work are often not the most important ones.

Immigrants who are used to the US mentality that work is much more important for social connections than in Germany thus feel that "[they] are not one of them", when in reality this is not the case.

I am very certain that typically German colleagues treat immigrants colleagues as they would treat their German work colleagues (as far as possible). The misunderstanding is rather that many people from other cultures want to be treated quite differently.

> So your friend group (if you decide to have one, rather than concentrate on family), will consist of other expats/immigrants.

In my observation the reason for this is rather because many migrants have very different wishes on their surrounding group than what is common in Germany (also and in particular for Germans).

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#452

Post by hunterpayne »

bellowsgulch wrote: post #224
joe_mamba wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who lived in the US briefly, I found Americans are just a lot more hospitable to foreigners, than Germans and most other Europeans in general. Probably because there's no such thing as an US-American ethnicity, but there definitely is at least one or more unique and very distinct ethnicities and cultures for every European country, and simply getting the passport as a foreign adult, does not also buy you i…

The whole immigrants who don't integrate seems to be a constant issue in every developed country across the globe, with the exception of maybe Japan, who is xenophobic enough that you wouldn't want to try to become Japanese anyway. Canada, England, France, and the US, to name a few, seem to have done it wrong considering how immigration is a constant complaint and weaponized topic in their politics, but likewise Japa…

Immigration isn't a binary decision for a state. Its a complex set of policy decisions. What is the state of the local economy? What skills do the new immigrants have? How much experience does the local population have with the incoming culture? What is the culture of the incoming migrants? All of these and many other things comes into play when evaluating or deciding upon immigration policies. For example, taking in Catholics from northern Mexico is nothing like taking in people from the tribals of Pakistan. Most European (quite naive) immigration policies from 10 years ago seemed so poorly thought out that they were doomed to fail. The swing the other way seems guaranteed based upon how bad those previous policies were.

PS The US does it well in general but there were periods of madness recently. The political discourse of many still shows extreme madness is still possible.

PPS The very wealthy are normally the main beneficiaries of immigration and undocumented immigration just creates an underclass with few to no legal protections.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#453

Post by annzabelle »

throw-the-towel wrote: post #112
ido wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supermarket opening times are definitely not that restrictive (these days, but I don't recall it ever being like you mentioned & I moved to Berlin in 2013). The ones near me are usually open early morning till late evening (8-10pm), monday to saturday.

The way you call 8pm "late evening" confirms GP's experience :)

Not Germany, but I live in a rural part of New Zealand. I noticed that several places in my town, including the chippy, had signs posted out front saying they were open til "late." Coming from the eastern US I assumed that late was at the earliest 11 or 12. Watch my surprise when I try to go get fish and chips at 8:45 and the chippy is already closed.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#454

Post by djaro »

dgs_sgd wrote: post #226
ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

I appreciate your perspective, but I was curious what B1 proficiency actually entails and this is what I found [1]: - understand the main points of clear standard speech on familiar topics such as work, school, or leisure - manage most situations that occur while traveling in German-speaking areas - produce simple, connected text on familiar subjects - describe experiences, events, dreams, hopes, and ambitions, and b…

Yeah, B1 is not even nearly fluent, on my B1 exam Spanish I had to roleplay with the examinator going to a store to return something after buying the wrong item. This is like, bare minimum of functioning.

I cannot imagine living in a country for over a year and not taking the effort to lesrn the language.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#455

Post by BeetleB »

bellowsgulch wrote: post #444
BeetleB wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt they speak only Spanish, but this is the part I contest: > There are notable issues What are the issues? Which (English speaking) Americans have been so negatively impacted because of this, and how? I don't live in the Southwest, but we have them here as well. They speak little/no English. Yet both they and the people around them live just fine.

“I don’t experience what others experience so it’s not a problem.” Are you still in your 20s?

I think you don't follow.

I said:

"When I hear people say this, it's not because of any experience they've had, but just a repetition of talking points"

You pointed out a potential problem. So my followup is: "What negative experience have you had because of this?"

I'm not claiming integration problems don't exist (see my original comment). I'm claiming they are very minor, and blown way, way out of proportion. So much so that while I've known many who complain about the integration problem, I've yet to find a single person who's had direct negative experience related to this.

And, as an aside, give people in their 20s a bit more credit!

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#456

Post by akudha »

graemep wrote: post #160
akudha wrote: post #125

All this discussion makes me wonder - is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy? Assuming the immigrant makes every effort to integrate (learning the language, respecting local people/customs etc). It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media? I don't know for sure.

Lots of people want to migrate from one country to another, so they clearly think their own lives would be improved (bar a few doing it altruistically). As for including the locals lives, how? You might be bringing skills they need, or money. Do you mean purely socially? That is very subjective. I think the media exaggerate the hostility. IMO most of the hostility here in the UK is aimed at 1) illegal immigrants and…

Do you mean purely socially? That is very subjective

True. I remember walking the streets of NYC with a friend. We played a game, if we hear anyone talking, we'd try and identify the language. In less than 20 minutes, I think we counted like 10, and they were only the ones we were sure of. That level of diversity is possible only with immigration.

Some people might be good with diversity. Some people might hate it. Immigration is a complex, nuanced topic. Personally, I am in the camp of letting people move around freely (as long as they are not doing crime and are being respectful to locals). This is 2026, we can fly from one corner of the world to another in 24 hours. We are more dependent on each other than ever - so why not let people move freely too?

But I also realize some people might not want immigrants, there are people who don't even want tourists (and tourist money)

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#457

Post by sufficientsoup »

dudul wrote: post #336
ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

How do you live 6 years in a country without reaching B1?

I think some people just get an irrational block about learning particular things. Like maybe you struggle with a music class in school and just identify as being incapable of learning an instrument, for example, even if they're a skilled learner otherwise. Can't speak for OP, obviously.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#458

Post by Dylan16807 »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #441
Dylan16807 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you do shallow smalltalk (as it is very common in the USA), you signal that you only want a shallow relationship. That sounds like an extremely obnoxious judgement. > If you want a deep friendship, better bring something deep to the table. At some point sure. Are you suggesting launching into deep conversation when you meet someone?

> Are you suggesting launching into deep conversation when you meet someone? I am strongly suggesting not to start with shallow smalltalk, as it is common in the USA. I would start with serious conversations when I meet someone to get a feeling. But if the "vibe" is right, you can indeed get deep rather soon.

It's very strange to see you simultaneously say that that friendships take longer to develop but also that I'm supposed to avoid shallow talk the entire time even when my friendship is very shallow.

Especially since it's usually Americans that have the reputation for treating strangers overly familiar in conversation.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#459

Post by jpmoral »

blks wrote: post #423
jitix wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are you complaining about the language requirement for permanent residency? You knew the tradeoffs and chose them willingly, enjoy your income, invest in your home country and move back once you retire. Simply making higher-than-median income should not make you eligible for permanent residency. Cultural immersion and assimilation is important to maintain social stability and language is just the first step.…

Why do you want people with foreign backgrounds to “assimilate”? If you were to move to France, are you going to abandon your own language, culture, and play-pretend to be a Frenchman? If you live somewhere long enough, know the country, work and handle daily life without issues, have social connections with other people in this society, understand at least some language - in my opinion you are as integrated in that…

[dead]

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#460

Post by try-working »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

I am European, working in China for 12 years making multiples of the average salary, speak Chinese above B1 level and am not eligible for permanent residency yet.

First of all, if you want to become a resident somewhere you must learn the language. Not should.

Second, no country owes any foreign citizen residency there.

Post reply on HN