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HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

theguardian.com

91–100 of 188 posts

Re: HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a divorced dad dipping your wick left and right or did you get it merely for the sake of doing so? The reason insurance does not pay for it at that age is because it makes no sense.

Married ~20 years and ethically non monogamous. My partner and I date women together and solo. ~$1k to protect other people is cheap and is looked upon favorably by potential partners (I am able to provide vaccination and most recent STI test results on demand when asked). Even if you’re monogamous, life is long and divorce common. I walk through cheap optionality doors whenever possible, and recommend others do to.…

Fair enough. I don't judge you.

But know that your lifestyle is outside the norm (I had to Google your description to make sure I understood aka open marriage) so your assumptions are slanted through that lens.

A lot of posters here and their families live very different lives and their choices likewise represent that, so their opinions are equally valid. Their needs are different.

Re: HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

#92
post #53

[flagged]

AIDS was killing over 40,000 people per year in the US at its peak. It’s now almost 10x lower despite a significantly larger population. I don’t think there’s some other STD killing tens of thousands per year to fill that gap.

That's a good counterargument

Reiterating my claim to focus on how your claim relates to it:

"I fear that we have a risk budget, so when STD risk is reduced via a cure or prophylaxis, humans increase the amount of sex they have until the STD rate stabilizes again."

You mention:

" I don’t think there’s some other STD killing tens of thousands per year to fill that gap."

They of course look contradictory at first glance, but is it possible that both claims are consistent?

My claim was about individual decision-making. Not that the effort made by researchers in developing cures, treatment or prophylaxis that reduces death rates is going to be counteracted.

For a couple of reasons the gap will not be filled:

1- 40k was a peak that triggered a reaction, we know that it crossed a threshold of tolerance for STD, and we know that that the upper bound for that threshold is 40k, but it is possible that such a threshold was lower, and that there is latency in the technologic and behavioural reaction that causes the rates to plateau and drop. If for example that threshold was 10k deaths per year, then my theory would argue that the std rate would approach the 10k threshold before triggering a reaction.

2- My claim was about individual decision-making, and I used the term STD risk, which we might naïvely mathematically model as p * QALE, where p is probability and QALE is (Quality Adjusted) Life Expectancy.

Quality of Life is part of the STD risk, and the STD risk might even be purely aesthetic without affecting health at all, for that reason, I wouldn't only measure death rates, but infection rates. So this comes down to what metric you multiply by p, I used QALE, you used LE, I would go as far as using u (utility), this would weigh low lethality and low damage STDs like mouth herpes a bit more, since they have rare complications, but are very visible, chronic, and carry 'stigma' that reduces dating/mate perceived value.

There's other differences between risk rate and lethality, especially as it relates to p and uncertainty over the future, the risk not only accounts for current incidence but for projected rates, in the middle of an epidemic one doesn't know where it will peak, and data often lags behind, 1 to 2 months of incubation period for AIDS plus procedural data gathering and publishing delays and aggregation periods. So the risk can be much higher than the incident rate suggests due to psychological uncertainty! I wasn't alive during the aids epidemic, but I read this was very documented, people were overtly cautious (for good cause).

I also assume it can work in the inverse, if there have been 20 years without an epidemic, people will get, uuhhh, 'cocky'.

3- Some stats, I'm not good at this, and there's no obvious conclusion.

https://www.cdc.gov/sti-statistics/annual/index.html

"In the United States, a total of 30,115 new cases of HPV-associated cancer were reported in 1999 and 43,371 in 2015 "

https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D127;jsessioni...

Chlamydia rising a lot

https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D127;jsessioni...

Diseases with similar epidemiology as AIDS dropping with ADS in the 90s, and then seeing a slow rise again.

It's worth noting that these charts don't track HPV or Herpes. I think in general medicine has a bias towards lethal diseases, which seems to explain why they were cut. (I don't think HPV was known at the time (1984-2014) to be known to have such a high lethality, and most was just attributed to cancer)

4- My theory would pose that there std risk oscillates between a high and a low threshold, even if we ignore the threshold/trigger issue and the QALE vs LE issue, then still we wouldn't expect the "gap to be filled", rather we would expect the std risk (and possibly the std rates or std lethality by proxy), to slowly rise until that risk rate, so it's not inconsistent.

Does that make sense?

Re: HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

#93

What's the rate for the unvaccinated group? So a comparison can be made vs. the vaccinated one. The fact that they leave this out is a bit weird, sloppy journalism I guess.

Looking at https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11733696/ it seems like the base rate was 0.04 per 100,000. So ~70 female deaths per year in a population the size of the USA. That link suggests the mortality rate was reduced by a factor of 2-4, so vaccinating 2 million (?) girls per year saves 30-50 lives. Some back-of-the-napkin math puts the price tag per life saved in the 8 digit range.

The problem with armchair back of the napkin math is that you make elementary mistakes like comparing the cost of a vaccine that provides decades of protection to the mortality statistics from a single year.

Re: HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Married ~20 years and ethically non monogamous. My partner and I date women together and solo. ~$1k to protect other people is cheap and is looked upon favorably by potential partners (I am able to provide vaccination and most recent STI test results on demand when asked). Even if you’re monogamous, life is long and divorce common. I walk through cheap optionality doors whenever possible, and recommend others do to.…

Fair enough. I don't judge you. But know that your lifestyle is outside the norm (I had to Google your description to make sure I understood aka open marriage) so your assumptions are slanted through that lens. A lot of posters here and their families live very different lives and their choices likewise represent that, so their opinions are equally valid. Their needs are different.

No offense intended, I wouldn’t care if judged, in any setting. Data has value, nothing else does. An opinion will mean nothing when faced with a cancer diagnosis, either self or child, and I’m not here to change hearts or minds (mental models are rigid, humans are emotion vs data driven); only to share data, and consume data. Go where the data takes you, assuming valid data.

If you’ve made a good choice based on the data, you win, well done. If you haven’t, “we win or we learn.” Better luck next time. Try to win more than you learn. Reality and outcomes are the test. They do not concern themselves with opinions and feelings importantly. And so, decision fully informed from a place of logic and rationality.

Re: HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

#95
I wasn't allowed to have it from the official health service because I'm already 50 even though I've not been very active in earlier years. But I paid for it myself (600€ for the 3 shots, quite expensive). I'm glad I did, when reading stuff like this.

They don't usually give it to older people because the more you have been exposed to the virus the less effective the vaccine is. But it protects against 9 variants and I think it is very unlikely I've encountered them all.

Re: HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

#96
post #40

My oldest daughter almost died from the first Gardasil, so you may not die from cervical cancer, but die from something else. I am not against vaccines; my kids are all fully vaccinated on a spaced-out schedule and not taking more than one shot in at least 2 months, and so am I, but the HPV vaccine was not mandatory, so, given the experience and the similar genetics, we didn't do it for the other two kids. Yeah, ther…

When you got the shot didn't they tell you about the possible side effects and what to watch for? I know for the Covid vaccine I had to sit for an hour to make sure of something not happening.

When I got it they didn't, no. Didn't have to stay either. But I was fine.

Re: HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

#98
post #33

Every time HPV comes up, someone says “guys should get the vaccine too” but I’ve never managed to succeed. Even after last time someone mentioned it I tried and I got the absolutely worst result where they recorded me as being given it but then said it wasn’t meant for men my age. Had to get it removed from the record by the One Medical people I saw next. And when I saw them, they said it wouldn’t be covered under in…

It cost me 600€ privately in Europe because it's not available for people my age.

Re: HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

#99
post #2

From what risk level without them? How many people actually die of cervical cancer before age 30?? I mean, vaccinations and cancer prevention are both great, but this headline is ridiculous.

>From what risk level without them? How many people actually die of cervical cancer before age 30??

They will downplay that number or exaggerate it.

Re: HPV vaccine cuts risk of dying from cervical cancer before 30

#100

Glad to see it, except it is still a sensationalist headline IMO because HPV deaths, and specifically below 30 years old, is already extremely low.

Whether it was low or not, the fact that we've been able to effectively cure a certain kind of cancer with a vaccine is a pretty big deal
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