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IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

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Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#181

Post by Evbn »

makmanalp wrote: post #61
_delirium wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to this, companies are required to pay the prevailing wage for that profession and location to foreign workers, so that they can not undercut Americans (or at least that was what was intended). I have no idea how prevalent it is, but the mechanism I've heard for getting around these rules is to hire someone at a lower title than what they're qualified for, and then pay them the prevailing wage for that po…

This makes sense. But the company can get into pretty big trouble for doing that. The nicest punishment is that they will be marked a willful violator and have to provide additional documentation for each H-1B. Or they can get debarred from getting H-1Bs. This makes no strategic sense for H-1B heavy companies.

There is no enforcement, though.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#182

Post by arkem »

If you're wondering if H-1b (and E-3) workers are paid less than American workers you can find out for yourself. The US Government publishes the employer, location, title, and salary of every H-1b application (whether accepted or declined). It's also a good source of information about how much large tech companies are paying for new hires this year.

http://www.flcdatacenter.com/ (also available from data.gov)

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#183

Post by intended »

rayiner wrote: post #168
akiselev wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the society doesn't extend the same obligations or benefits. Non permanent residents and citizens are treated as second class citizens both in their financial prospects (paying the same taxes, not receiving the same benefits in SS, Medicare/aid, unemployment benefits, and especially federal financial aid among many others). Many immigrants never receive these benefits because they are forced out before they are e…

That's an argument for more strict immigration, not less. We shouldn't let in anyone we're not willing to extend all the benefits of citizenship to.

The original point you were making though is undermined here - as he points out, the community is getting more out of H1-Bs/potential immigrants than it is necessarily giving back.

That goes against the narrative your are backing - i.e. societies subsidize care and education of all - including immigrants, and hence should have natural rights in controlling membership.

The way it is currently set up, there are several bars and challenges in being naturalized, and you really have to work at it if you want it.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#184

Post by intended »

geebee wrote: post #145
akiselev wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that the shortage was by any means short term. The 80s and 90s saw many many baby boomers start to retire, especially in the manufacturing and industrial fields, while vocational and STEM education paths became less and less popular with the younger generations. This also coincided with free trade "reform" and the beginnings of the outsourcing wave, which was very tech/industrial heavy and thus lowered…

"America is built on the backs of immigrants and having maximum quotas for the immigration of the highest skilled ones does not seem like artificially increasing the supply." I mean artificially increasing the supply relative to other professions . If we "staple a green card to every STEM degree" but not other degrees, we will increase the supply of STEM workers relative to lawyers, MBAs, finance majors, and so forth…

For STEM workers - the only reason to argue against it, has a single kernel: There aren't enough jobs.

For that matter, getting the smartest STEM majors into your country, and working on new technologies could create new jobs and opportunities.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#185

Post by Roboprog »

rayiner wrote: post #64
nullc wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen many kinds of H1B employment. People with excellent skills and experience being paid competitive wages, people with reasonable skills being exploited at low wages at the clear expense of locals, and people who were hardly qualified to warm a seat being pulled in to pad up some contract as cheaply as possible. As usually when you paint with broad strokes you cover some dissimilar surfaces. But at the core th…

A country is a community. Multinational companies don't want people to believe that, but it's true. A community is entitled to control its membership. An H-1B is not just a contract between employer and employee. It is a contract between a foreigner and a community. We the community agree to make that person one of us. To educate his or her children at the public expense. To allow him or her to affect our elections.…

I love the way you described this. The people disagreeing with you seem to have a completely different values system though.

They don't see themselves as part of a group with mutual responsibilities. "Atlas shrugged" off your inclination to see a community, where these people think everyone should be able to do whatever they want (and vice versa, to them???).

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#186

Post by intended »

geebee wrote: post #151
akiselev wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as a side note: the green card is by no means stapled. It's an immensely difficult upward battle, with an emotional and financial expense the likes of which most domestic workers never go through. The H1-B is not selective for a specific set of professions per se, it's selective for professions requiring expertise and at least a bachelors degree. Official USCIS requirements: "-Bachelor’s or higher degree or its…

I was referring to proposals to "staple a green card" to STEM degrees (currently in the Senate), not the current reality which I will agree is very daunting. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/27/opinion/visas-for-scientis... In spite of my misgivings about what I think is a contrived shortage, I would support this legislation, mainly because I think it is extremely destructive to kick out highly educated people who have…

I can at least speak about law - this link showed up on HN a few days ago - Suicide prices and the coming crisis at big law firms. http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/10/suicide-prices-the-comi...

Law firms have been in crisis for at least several years from what I know. I even remember having to go through a prospectus for a legal services outsourcing firm at work a while back.

Finance - I know for a fact that post 2008 a large number of firms went bust, and the recession was brutal - lots of people returned to their home countries after finding no work.

And it was the financial sector that added to the STEM shortage by hoovering up those students. Science and Math types that can demonstrate good math and organizational ability are the ideal rank and file for Financial modeling and its related task set.

On top of that there is no shortage of natural finance types either.

S0 those two sections of the economy are almost overstaffed, and one of those sections is dying.

With regards to plumbing - thats a guild oriented job and aside from the usual complaints about collusion and what not, its also expensive because its likely not that attractive.

I think of all the reasons, STEM poaching by other industries was probably one of the larger issues which should be reduced now.

Still, your system is strongly aimed at attracting and retaining the best talent in the world.

The issues people are complaining about are because they feel job searches have become a zero sum game - the presence of a competitor reduces the size of the pie for everyone.

The solution is to make more pies, but that is beyond my ability to detail out.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#187

Post by intended »

rayiner wrote: post #128
akiselev wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After having paid the taxes with no safety net, the constant risk of deportation hanging over their heads, aaand a ridiculous green card process that can take a decade or more. (My parents are a biophysicist working for NASA and a mechE working for a printer company and it took us FOURTEEN YEARS). 14 years of taxes is quite a bit at an effective 35% rate without the promise of social security of any kind.

I'm not justifying the H1-B system. I'm justifying our country's exercise of controls on immigration.

You seem to be seeking the moral high ground for justifying a country's exercise of its ability to curtail immigrants.

As the responses are showing, the moral high ground is largely unavailable for this particular motion.

On the other hand, a country can do what the heck it pleases on letting people in, which is generally the bedrock of its powers anyway, so why is this an issue.

All immigrants know that they are the mercy of a bureaucracy they have to please. Not at the mercy of some high minded ideal system.

- ninja edit for clarity and brevity.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#188

Post by btilly »

neilk wrote: post #167
btilly wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I did not. H1B transfers require the new employer to go through a significant amount of paperwork, and have all of the usual lags that anything to do with the government does. As a result the requirement to deal with this is a significant impediment for changing jobs. Particularly for very small employers that may not have people dedicated for this kind of paperwork. What I'm describing is, "Oh, you're in the coun…

I've been through an H1-B transfer myself, the lawyers didn't seem to think it was a big deal. From application to acceptance I don't think it was even a week. I think if your idea was implemented there would be little change in H1-B mobility. Fact is, a foreign worker just has fewer options in the host country for lots of reasons and paperwork is the least of it. The foreign worker probably has no professional reput…

As you may or may not be aware, I'm personally aware of you and value your opinion significantly more than an average HN commenter.

Therefore let me just say that one of the reasons that I would suggest the bond from the initial company is to cover the potential government obligation in the case of a significant period of unemployment. Does this not seem to be an important difference? If not, then it would seem that the H1-B status is not as different from a regular citizen as I thought, and employers of H1-B visa holders do not have as much control as I thought that they did.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#189

Post by 3143 »

btilly wrote: post #109

Here is my modest proposal for how to handle the H1B issue. In order to hire an H1B worker, you have to post a significant bond. The worker arrives and has a fixed number of years in the USA. Once the worker arrives, the worker has absolutely no legal obligation to the hiring company. In other words rather than ask companies to swear up and down that they can't find American workers, while they have every incentive t…

Companies get cheap labor and foreign workers get great opportunities. Protectionism may appear to help local workers in the short term but it will damage the entire country in the long term.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#190

Post by 3143 »

Evbn wrote: post #179
jrockway wrote: post #90

I don't think this is discrimination against Americans: it's just discrimination against people who price themselves higher. H1-B workers are glad to be in the US and are willing to accept substantially less cash compensation as a result. Americans already have US citizenship and want to be paid in money. Companies don't like spending money but the government allows them to spend "citizenship points" on employees ins…

What you describe is illegal. H1B's are required to be paid the same as American peers.

If a company wants to pay them less, they can find a way.
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