Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

cis.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 215 posts

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#141

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #89
blinkingled wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1-B VISA has a limit of 6 years. H1-Bs get no social security benefits even though they pay social security taxes just like anyone else. Their children do not educate for free - they pay local, federal and city taxes just like anyone else. They aren't allowed to vote. You are thinking immigrants not H1-Bs. Due to severe shortage of immigrant VISAs and due to MNCs not filing Green Cards for most H1-Bs - there is a sm…

I'm talking immigration generally, not just H1-B. But even in the context of H1-B: If an H1-B needs emergency treatment, hospitals won't turn them away because of their H1-B status. That's part of our social safety net. Education is paid via property taxes. Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes. In any case, nobody who is living here six years is covering the cost of a child's educatio…

[deleted]

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#142

Post by jimbokun »

eru wrote: post #127
grecy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not.... > Either the money comes back to the US eventually, or if it doesn't That may be the most superfluous statement I've ever read. > The solution is of course, to set up a second firm to compete with the first one. The wages saved should thus eventually go away from being excess profit to making prices cheaper for the consumer. And it will put every local person out of a job, o…

> And it will put every local person out of a job, or force them to work for a wage lower than they were willing to accept in the first place, thus driving down minimum wage. That's a great way to turn your country into a developing one. I can't tell if you're trolling or not, either. I hope, you know, wages are high in the rich world because of high productivity (in sectors that produce tradeable goods)? Not because…

"I hope, you know, wages are high in the rich world because of high productivity"

I'm pretty sure productivity has been rising rapidly over the last decade in the U.S., with no increase in wages.

"Their inhabitants now have the right to work everywhere in the EU. Did wages in the rest of the rich parts of the EU fall down to Polish levels? No."

What levels did they fall to (I honestly don't know)?

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#143

Post by coliveira »

EricDeb wrote: post #76

As a recent STEM graduate (Masters in CS), what irks me is the relentless focus on job experience. I don't even get interviews for jobs requiring a high school/GED equivalence + 3 years of experience. There seems to be little faith in our STEM programs among tech recruiters/companies.

That's the important point is being missed. Despite what they say, this industry doesn't care about technical education. You will see people with masters doing the same work as people without a Bachelors, and the same for PhDs. As a result, there is no point in getting more education if the companies will not even consider it. Additionally, this is also tells me that what you need to advance is these companies is how politically savvy you are, instead of how much education you have.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#144

Post by rayiner »

akiselev wrote: post #140
rayiner wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not justifying the H1-B system. I'm justifying our country's exercise of controls on immigration.

The situation is almost exactly the same across our entire immigration system, the H1-B Visa is no exception. Only in rare cases do immigrants not pay the same taxes (through bidirectional tax treaties) and most of them don't receive the same benefits, if any.

The point isn't whether immigrants pay the same taxes. The point is that society makes certain commitments to everyone who lives in the US, and everyone who lives in the US makes certain reciprocal commitments to the society. A society legitimately controls immigration into the country by virtue of those reciprocal commitments.

At a most fundamental level, a nation is a group of people who commit to protect each other in case of attack. If you're in the US, we'll protect you from foreign invaders whether you're a citizen, legal resident, or H1-B holder. Because we make that commitment, we get to decide who crosses our borders. We get to decide based on whatever factors we want whether we want to let someone emigrate.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#145

Post by geebee »

akiselev wrote: post #139
geebee wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It seems to me that the H1-B was more a response to young Americans not entering various fields than the other way around." I think it may be a self-reinforcing cycle. A short term "shortage" may prompt the visa program, but this may suppress the increase in wages that would attract more US citizens to the field. Which can lead to greater shortages, more visas, and so forth. Enough iterations of this process and you…

I don't think that the shortage was by any means short term. The 80s and 90s saw many many baby boomers start to retire, especially in the manufacturing and industrial fields, while vocational and STEM education paths became less and less popular with the younger generations. This also coincided with free trade "reform" and the beginnings of the outsourcing wave, which was very tech/industrial heavy and thus lowered…

"America is built on the backs of immigrants and having maximum quotas for the immigration of the highest skilled ones does not seem like artificially increasing the supply."

I mean artificially increasing the supply relative to other professions. If we "staple a green card to every STEM degree" but not other degrees, we will increase the supply of STEM workers relative to lawyers, MBAs, finance majors, and so forth. And trust me, those guys bill more than $100 an hour. Those guys will make that "ridiculous" rate look very reasonable.

I would actually support a specific emphasis on STEM workers if there were evidence of a shortage, but there isn't. Like you, I know people doing pretty well, but that's not going to override the conclusions of a careful study by the RAND institute, or other surveys that show that wages are not increasing anywhere the rate you'd expect.

Just to be clear - I am not opposed to general immigration or skilled immigration. Immigrants will come to the US, many will be skilled, and some of the skilled will be skilled in STEM fields. However, I'd need to see more evidence of a shortage before I'd support specifically tinkering with the immigration system to get a higher percentage of STEM workers relative to other types of skilled workers.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#146

Post by anthonyb »

rayiner wrote: post #144
akiselev wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is almost exactly the same across our entire immigration system, the H1-B Visa is no exception. Only in rare cases do immigrants not pay the same taxes (through bidirectional tax treaties) and most of them don't receive the same benefits, if any.

The point isn't whether immigrants pay the same taxes. The point is that society makes certain commitments to everyone who lives in the US, and everyone who lives in the US makes certain reciprocal commitments to the society. A society legitimately controls immigration into the country by virtue of those reciprocal commitments. At a most fundamental level, a nation is a group of people who commit to protect each othe…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#147

Post by anthonyb »

debacle wrote: post #68
yummyfajitas wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), Could you explain this in more detail?

spqr, you look to be hellbanned on HN. You might want to email PG and find out why.

I suspect this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2892050

One of the problems with downvoting new people - if they go negative, they're automatically hellbanned.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#148

Post by jhuckestein »

I'm surprised none of the top-comments has mentioned that this causes problems for startups legitimately trying to hire the best people they can find globally.

On of the many things USCIS doesn't understand about young (pre series-A) startups is that the compensation is often a mix of equity and a below market salary that is bumped up significantly upon raising money.

My lawyer tells me that H-1B denials have been piling up in the last few months. Perhaps it is the USCIS response to practices like the one described in the article.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#149

Post by chaostheory »

rayiner wrote: post #119
ark15 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1Bs residing in the US pay the same tax (including social security and medicare) as the citizens.(so if their kids need public education, they are also paying for it in a way) H1Bs are not entitled to unemployment benefits (or any form of government sponsored healthcare). In fact, technically, they are supposed to leave the country the same day they are fired otherwise they are illegally staying.

H1-B is a big step towards green card status for many people, and green card holders are entitled to all of these things.

> H1-B is a big step towards green card status for many people

It is a big step, but it's still hard to get green card status unless you really luck out with both the company you work and the manager(s) you report to.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#150

Post by akiselev »

geebee wrote: post #145
akiselev wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that the shortage was by any means short term. The 80s and 90s saw many many baby boomers start to retire, especially in the manufacturing and industrial fields, while vocational and STEM education paths became less and less popular with the younger generations. This also coincided with free trade "reform" and the beginnings of the outsourcing wave, which was very tech/industrial heavy and thus lowered…

"America is built on the backs of immigrants and having maximum quotas for the immigration of the highest skilled ones does not seem like artificially increasing the supply." I mean artificially increasing the supply relative to other professions . If we "staple a green card to every STEM degree" but not other degrees, we will increase the supply of STEM workers relative to lawyers, MBAs, finance majors, and so forth…

Just as a side note: the green card is by no means stapled. It's an immensely difficult upward battle, with an emotional and financial expense the likes of which most domestic workers never go through.

The H1-B is not selective for a specific set of professions per se, it's selective for professions requiring expertise and at least a bachelors degree. Official USCIS requirements:

"-Bachelor’s or higher degree or its equivalent is normally the minimum entry requirement for the position The degree requirement for the job is common to the industry or the job is so complex or unique that it can be performed only by an individual with a degree -The employer normally requires a degree or its equivalent for the position -The nature of the specific duties is so specialized and complex that the knowledge required to perform the duties is usually associated with the attainment of a bachelor’s or higher degree." [1]

This begs the argument about allowing in only educated immigrants vs everyone which is a dangerous emotional slippery slope so I won't get into it. For the purposes of the H1-B, pretty much any position even remotely requiring an education can qualify so it's not artificially increasing the supply of one over another. It's just that few companies need foreign MBAs or lawyers in America (as domestic employees) and other professions such as doctors require American certification before becoming eligible.

As for the shortage, the data shows that there is none (or at least I have no statistical evidence otherwise). However, when it comes to excellence, there is a huge difference between a mediocre engineer (or lawyer, doctor, w.e) and a great one. The reason Russians, Germans, Jews, etc. have been so prevalent in science in the US is because the best from these countries get to actually immigrate here. (Not totally true but close enough). Americans don't need to compete on wage, they need to compete on competency and that's like asking a community college class to compete with a class from MIT. There will be geniuses in the CC class more often than not but MIT selects for genius (or grades) and will have a higher concentration. This is one reason why we have quotas in the first place (part of the historically rooted fear of foreigners in throughout US history).

Edit: [1] http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b...

Edit2: To clarify the above comment about competing based on competency, I'm talking mostly about legitimate uses of the H1-B. There is obviously cases of abuse, but from my experience I think those are in the minority.

Post reply on HN