Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

cis.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 215 posts

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#171

Post by prostoalex »

rada wrote: post #137
prostoalex wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"tech professionals" usually bundles software engineers, system administrators, network administrators, and sometimes "business analysts" whose job it is to produce a report in Access. Some of these sectors experienced severe declines, e.g., companies hosting their email with Google instead of advertising for an MCSE and Exchange administrator position, so the pay for some of the sectors adjusted accordingly.

Web developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Web-Developer-l-United-States... Mobile developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Mobile+Developer&l1=Unit... Senior Android developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Android+Developer&l1=Uni... Junior Java developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Junior+Java+Developer&l1... Node.js: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Node.js+&l1=United+State... No matter what you pl…

Wouldn't this affect everybody across the board? I think the senior salary flat-lining and junior salary growing is pretty much the law of nature in any occupation - there's a salary band for a given skill, and those who start at the bottom and are any good progress fast, those who start at the bottom and are no good drop out of the race and go do something else, and senior people pretty much know they're at the top of salary range and need to move into management or open up their own consulting firm.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#172

Post by Evbn »

aristus wrote: post #34
greggman wrote: post #11

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

It may not be true for smaller companies hiring the fastest guns in the West (or the East, as may be). But I assure you that the "visa discount" is real. The most common form is to hire someone who really should be at level N at level N-2 instead, and get as much level N work out of them as you can. For example, an architect working as a draftsman, or a managing editor working as a reporter. I've seen people with 10+…

This is of course completely illegal under H1B law, but hard to police.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#173

Post by Evbn »

grecy wrote: post #93
jlgreco wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that reality is messy . There are a lot of factors that gunk up a good theory. Higher demand can lead to higher wages if we restrict immigration, but if American students raw out of highschool are not thinking 5 to 10 years into their future when they pick a major, supply is not going to jump like the growing industry needs it to. The issue is compounded when popular media artificially lowers the level…

> If supply is dwindling then raising wages can work for individual companies, but not I think for the industry as a whole. It's interesting you look at this from the perspective of benefiting the companies. My discussion was about the lack of benefit to the employees and people in the country in general. > supply is not going to jump like the growing industry needs it to. Industry only needs supply to jump fast so t…

...and so people born on other pieces of dirt can have higher standard of living...

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#174

Post by artsrc »

rayiner wrote: post #89
blinkingled wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1-B VISA has a limit of 6 years. H1-Bs get no social security benefits even though they pay social security taxes just like anyone else. Their children do not educate for free - they pay local, federal and city taxes just like anyone else. They aren't allowed to vote. You are thinking immigrants not H1-Bs. Due to severe shortage of immigrant VISAs and due to MNCs not filing Green Cards for most H1-Bs - there is a sm…

I'm talking immigration generally, not just H1-B. But even in the context of H1-B: If an H1-B needs emergency treatment, hospitals won't turn them away because of their H1-B status. That's part of our social safety net. Education is paid via property taxes. Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes. In any case, nobody who is living here six years is covering the cost of a child's educatio…

I agree that a green cards (permanent residency) and citizenship involve significant obligations.

From a fiscal point of view H1-B's are all win for the Government. They won't take chronically sick or otherwise disadvantaged people. They don't take old people. They mostly (all?) get health insurance.

H1-B don't involve much more long term liability than tourist visa's.

Many (most?) H1B don't have kids. When I was an H1B I paid many multiples of $20K in tax and had no kids in school.

> It costs $15-20k per year to educate a child in most states.

I am wondering your source. I don't know where this money could go. Teacher student ratios are about 25 to 1 and teachers cost about $75k, so I figure it costs about 3K in basic salary plus about 1K in reasonable overheads + $6K in government waste.

Total spending is k-12 spending in the US is $526.1B (1) Total children are 25.0 + 25.4 million (2)

So it actually costs about $10K per child.

1 - http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2013USbn_1...

2 - http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/tables/pop1.asp

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#175

Post by Evbn »

rayiner wrote: post #67

Tech companies and their approach to labor is just sickening. They complain constantly that we don't let in enough H1B's. Are they offering to indemnify the government in case they need healthcare, unemployment; their children need public education, etc? They complain constantly that the publicly funded universities don't graduate enough STEM graduates to meet their needs. Think about that--they complain with no hint…

H1B workers don't get government assistance. They get deported if they stop working.

Children born in the US to H1B workers are US citizens, just as you and I are.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#176

Post by Evbn »

patmcguire wrote: post #79
yummyfajitas wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), Could you explain this in more detail?

It's like the senior discount on a grander scale. Your typical old person on a fixed income can pay less than someone still working, so you split the market into two segments and do a pricing strategy that gives maximum profit in both - you keep the high margin on the young but increase the quantity the old can afford more than the price cut. You keep people from moving between the segmented markets by setting an age…

Nowhere does your long post explain anything about "artificial inflation", only market pricing.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#177

Post by Evbn »

wes-exp wrote: post #136
debacle wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are using free trade to introduce foreign-made goods at huge margins, while at the same time trying to prevent consumers from practicing price arbitrage. If corporations were not artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), then there would be no issue with an open labor market. But the corporations want to have th…

This. Inside the US, consumers have to pay the "rich tax" on products they buy. Outside the US, you get a discount. It is no wonder companies want to hire foreign workers that do not have to pay this additional cost. Living in the US could be very cheap if there was actually free trade for goods such as medication. Instead, due to this global price discrimination, US workers face a high cost of living that makes them…

Or, without US prices, producers would have insufficient recenues and go bankrupt.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#178

Post by Evbn »

syntaxerrornow wrote: post #80
debacle wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are using free trade to introduce foreign-made goods at huge margins, while at the same time trying to prevent consumers from practicing price arbitrage. If corporations were not artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), then there would be no issue with an open labor market. But the corporations want to have th…

AND, they want to be able to restrict flow of goods bought abroad into the US, so they can keep US profits artificially high. All of the benefits, none of the liabilities.

Imagine global trade were nonexistent or price matched to US. Why do you think US prices would drop, instead of Intl prices raised?

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#179

Post by Evbn »

jrockway wrote: post #90

I don't think this is discrimination against Americans: it's just discrimination against people who price themselves higher. H1-B workers are glad to be in the US and are willing to accept substantially less cash compensation as a result. Americans already have US citizenship and want to be paid in money. Companies don't like spending money but the government allows them to spend "citizenship points" on employees ins…

What you describe is illegal. H1B's are required to be paid the same as American peers.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#180

Post by Evbn »

realrocker wrote: post #71

This sort of thing is also harmful for native IT development for an outsourcing destination such as India. Since the motive of work channeled to India is simply cheaper costs, good software engineers have a limited run. One of the direct fallout is time-based promotions instead of merit-based. Some salient points: a) Average entry salary(0 years exp.) for an IT worker is about $6k. After applying PPP(purchasing power…

GDP?
Post reply on HN