Norm Matloff discusses the issues on H-1B
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html
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Bottom Line: there is no labor shortage and there's no need for special targeting of technology jobs.
IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
131–140 of 215 posts
Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
#132Here is my modest proposal for how to handle the H1B issue. In order to hire an H1B worker, you have to post a significant bond. The worker arrives and has a fixed number of years in the USA. Once the worker arrives, the worker has absolutely no legal obligation to the hiring company. In other words rather than ask companies to swear up and down that they can't find American workers, while they have every incentive t…
You just described H1B transfers.
No I did not.
H1B transfers require the new employer to go through a significant amount of paperwork, and have all of the usual lags that anything to do with the government does. As a result the requirement to deal with this is a significant impediment for changing jobs. Particularly for very small employers that may not have people dedicated for this kind of paperwork.
What I'm describing is, "Oh, you're in the country on a valid visa? Come work for us tomorrow, at the same rate under the same rules that a US citizen faces!"
Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's the relevance of such a law? The point isn't whether H1-B's contribute more or less than residents/citizens. The point is that letting something in the country creates a set of reciprocal obligations. The people in a community are entitled to exercise control over incurring these obligations.
You keep referring to obligations but I see no obligations society or community has to incur cost or resources for admitting a H1-B. If there were publicly funded hospitals that cared for H1-Bs, if there were publicly funded accommodations for H1-B offered for free or subsidized costs, if the government charged you in taxes for fulfilling their obligations towards the H1B - then what you are saying would be right. No…
First, I'm talking about immigration generally, not just H1-B.
Second, you seem to be conflating the term "obligation" with "burden." I'm not saying that H1-B's are somehow particularly a drain on public resources or they benefit from common public expenditures in some special way that citizens don't. That's not what "obligation" means. You point out that you "paid for everything just like every other legal resident/citizen" and I'm sure that's true. But would you say our community has no obligations to every other legal resident/citizen? Of course not. The society has obligations to everyone within its borders.
You say I'm making up "corner cases that apply equally to H1-B and Citizens" but nothing in my argument requires the community's obligations to extend to H1-B's specially. The community is obligated to everyone who lives here. For example, every single hospital in the US is publicly subsidized in some way. It's either a public hospital, a non-profit hospital, attached to a public university, etc. They all benefit from $30 billion in NIH grants, etc. H1-B's and Citizens benefit equally from that public subsidy. But that's an obligation of our society to both H-1Bs and citizens. We consider ourselves obligated to have a quality healthcare system for people who live here, including H1-B's. We don't turn away people from these hospitals just because they're H1-B's. The same thing with public education. It doesn't need to be the case that every H1-B goes to public school. That's not relevant. What's important is that our society makes a commitment--if you have a kid and need to send him to school, you will have a public school accessible. That's a commitment we make to everyone who lives here. We also commit to extend citizenship to your children born here. Again, that's something we commit to everyone who lives here, whether they take advantage of it or not. That commitment is the obligation.
Just because these obligations are extended uniformly does not make them not obligations. My point is not that we should have fewer H1-B's because they suck up American resources. It's not an argument about the number of H1-B's or immigrants we take. My comments were originally a response to someone questioning the validity of our exercise of any controls on immigration. That's what I'm replying to. I'm asserting that because our society extends obligations to everyone who lives here, we validly get to control who gets to live here.
Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm talking immigration generally, not just H1-B. But even in the context of H1-B: If an H1-B needs emergency treatment, hospitals won't turn them away because of their H1-B status. That's part of our social safety net. Education is paid via property taxes. Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes. In any case, nobody who is living here six years is covering the cost of a child's educatio…
>Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes I see this ridiculous assertion everywhere now a days. If h1b's are renting an apartment, they are still paying property taxes because the building owner has to pay these taxes. Do you think that property owners really pay these taxes out of the goodness of their heart?
Typically the tax density per square foot is higher for middle class homes than for rentals. 100 $200k homes yield more property valuation (and thus tax) than a 100 unit trailer park that is worth $60k/ unit.
That's why outside of the largest cities, there isn't much high density housing for middle class folks -- it's not price competitive.
Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Most H1-B's do not own their homes and thus do not pay property taxes I see this ridiculous assertion everywhere now a days. If h1b's are renting an apartment, they are still paying property taxes because the building owner has to pay these taxes. Do you think that property owners really pay these taxes out of the goodness of their heart?
The allocation of property taxes amongst renters and landlords isn't a simple calculation. It depends on the dynamics of the market.
It's ultimately irrelevant.
Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
#136Please consider the following two points. What's the difference between them? 1. The US pushed free-market + lower tariffs for imports of products into other countries. This lead to lower production in those countries, replaced by imports from the US. Leading to lower employment in many cases. [Today that's replaced with imports from China] 2. Other countries export 'services' to the US, in the form of BPOs/KPOs, or…
Corporations are using free trade to introduce foreign-made goods at huge margins, while at the same time trying to prevent consumers from practicing price arbitrage. If corporations were not artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), then there would be no issue with an open labor market. But the corporations want to have th…
This. Inside the US, consumers have to pay the "rich tax" on products they buy. Outside the US, you get a discount. It is no wonder companies want to hire foreign workers that do not have to pay this additional cost.
Living in the US could be very cheap if there was actually free trade for goods such as medication. Instead, due to this global price discrimination, US workers face a high cost of living that makes them uncompetitive for jobs such as manufacturing.
Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but…
"tech professionals" usually bundles software engineers, system administrators, network administrators, and sometimes "business analysts" whose job it is to produce a report in Access. Some of these sectors experienced severe declines, e.g., companies hosting their email with Google instead of advertising for an MCSE and Exchange administrator position, so the pay for some of the sectors adjusted accordingly.
Web developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Web-Developer-l-United-States...
Mobile developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Mobile+Developer&l1=Unit...
Senior Android developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Android+Developer&l1=Uni...
Junior Java developers: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Junior+Java+Developer&l1...
Node.js: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Node.js+&l1=United+State...
No matter what you plug in, you will see 2-year inflation-adjusted increases in the vicinity of 0%.
Even better, go ahead and play around with same title, different seniority.
Junior iOS programmer: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=junior++ios+programmer&l...
Senior iOS programmer: http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=senior++ios+programmer&l...
See how juniors get raises, while seniors get flat-lined? That's the downward pressure of H1Bs as well as evidence of buyers' (hiring managers) actual purchasing behavior markedly different from "we can't find anyone who can do basic fizz buzz! we need people with skillz!".
Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
#138US immigration is completely broken.
I went to college and graduated in the US on a J1 visa, I paid my fees and when I worked I paid my federal, state taxes + my social security contributions. After graduation I left the US as obviously it makes sense to take my money, teach me skills and then tell me to leave?
Why are graduates not being allowed to stay ?
I want to move to the US, pay taxes and generally be a good citizen.
My main two options are:
- Marry an american girl (not as simple as it sounds, takes a long time) - H1B which has a route to citizenship over 10 years
Sadly as this article shows H1B is being abused and with the cap being filled quickly every year its very hard to get one.
What happened to the country built on immigration?
Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
It seems to me that the H1-B was more a response to young Americans not entering various fields than the other way around. In machining, for example, companies all over the country from automotive to aerospace to medical to mom and pop machine shops are having trouble finding skilled workers. As many as 50-70% of respondents in major industry surveys are saying that a skilled worker shortage is a major problem for gr…
"It seems to me that the H1-B was more a response to young Americans not entering various fields than the other way around." I think it may be a self-reinforcing cycle. A short term "shortage" may prompt the visa program, but this may suppress the increase in wages that would attract more US citizens to the field. Which can lead to greater shortages, more visas, and so forth. Enough iterations of this process and you…
I don't think that the shortage was by any means short term. The 80s and 90s saw many many baby boomers start to retire, especially in the manufacturing and industrial fields, while vocational and STEM education paths became less and less popular with the younger generations. This also coincided with free trade "reform" and the beginnings of the outsourcing wave, which was very tech/industrial heavy and thus lowered labor wages here for competitiveness (whether or not it was necessary). Wages also vary extremely drastically, even across proximate geographies. I.e., in LA starting software dev positions were at $45-50k a year while in SV they are $70-80k. Having lived in both areas, the difference in cost of living is NOT that big.
While engineering itself may not be subject to much regulation, the H1-B process is. It is the equivalent of extraordinary ability but with a lower barrier to entry based on market needs instead of publications. As such it is very carefully regulated. As for "artificially" increasing supply... that's a weird way to put it. America is built on the backs of immigrants and having maximum quotas for the immigration of the highest skilled ones does not seem like artificially increasing the supply. The reality is that 90%+ of the world would gladly take a salary 30-50% lower than an American just to live here and the H1-B hinders such under cutting.
As far as engineering falling badly behind other fields... I don't see it. The Bay Area is obviously not representative but I don't know of a single engineer (not software) who is unemployed or has trouble finding consulting gigs for ridiculous $100+ an hour rates. Outside of the Bay, most of the employed engineers that I know are older and pretty much irrelevant skill wise. Machinists who know nothing about 5-axis or high speed machining, electrical engineers who can't do high frequency design required by so much of our tech now adays, mechEs who don't have much experience with design for manufacturing, etc.
Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
After having paid the taxes with no safety net, the constant risk of deportation hanging over their heads, aaand a ridiculous green card process that can take a decade or more. (My parents are a biophysicist working for NASA and a mechE working for a printer company and it took us FOURTEEN YEARS). 14 years of taxes is quite a bit at an effective 35% rate without the promise of social security of any kind.
I'm not justifying the H1-B system. I'm justifying our country's exercise of controls on immigration.
The situation is almost exactly the same across our entire immigration system, the H1-B Visa is no exception.
Only in rare cases do immigrants not pay the same taxes (through bidirectional tax treaties) and most of them don't receive the same benefits, if any.