IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers • Hacker News Board

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#121

Post by untog » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:18 PM UTC

rada wrote: post #53

greggman wrote: post #11

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider. 1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics. 2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but…

Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough.

As a current H1B holder, I have to disagree with that. I've just completed my second visa transfer, to my third job since moving to the US. I have had zero problems doing so- it requires some patience on the part of your future employer and while I've been lucky with past employers and not had to worry, you can also file the transfer without telling your current employer.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#122

Post by akiselev » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:19 PM UTC

isalmon wrote: post #19

greggman wrote: post #11

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

>> the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. My experience is very different. I was on H-1b for 4 years before getting my green card and EACH of my 3 employers (including big Finnish cell phone company) paid me MUCH lower than my market salary. Each time they told me th…

In my family's experience, we have had both situations. The H1-B can become a massive expense, especially if the State Department get's more involved in the process (sometimes called a "security check") and many tiems, the entire H1-B to GC process can cost in excess of $30-40k (The management overhead/legal fees are huge, well above the $3k filing fees), especially after you factor in risk of turn over to the employer.

Between my parents and all of our friends (Russian born engineers mostly), we don't know of more than one or two cases out of dozens where someone was paid more than 10% below market wage

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#123

Post by prostoalex » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:19 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #109

Here is my modest proposal for how to handle the H1B issue. In order to hire an H1B worker, you have to post a significant bond. The worker arrives and has a fixed number of years in the USA. Once the worker arrives, the worker has absolutely no legal obligation to the hiring company. In other words rather than ask companies to swear up and down that they can't find American workers, while they have every incentive t…

You just described H1B transfers.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#124

Post by supercanuck » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:24 PM UTC

lrobb wrote: post #57

greggman wrote: post #11

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

>> But my personal anecdotal experience The plural of anecdote is not data.

it is information

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#125

Post by blinkingled » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:25 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #117

blinkingled wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a law for residents/citizens that requires employers to have insurance plans that cover all expenses? Emergency treatments are not exactly free or paid for by tax payers. If a H1-B loses his job or doesn't pay for med insurance and goes to healthcare institution (are there any publicly funded ones here?) - they will treat him/her but slap a collection for the full costs. As far as I know that is a potential…

What's the relevance of such a law? The point isn't whether H1-B's contribute more or less than residents/citizens. The point is that letting something in the country creates a set of reciprocal obligations. The people in a community are entitled to exercise control over incurring these obligations.

You keep referring to obligations but I see no obligations society or community has to incur cost or resources for admitting a H1-B. If there were publicly funded hospitals that cared for H1-Bs, if there were publicly funded accommodations for H1-B offered for free or subsidized costs, if the government charged you in taxes for fulfilling their obligations towards the H1B - then what you are saying would be right. None of those are true - I paid for everything just like every other legal resident/citizen. You cannot make up corner cases that apply equally to H1-B and Citizens and claim that as an obligation - for the majority of H1Bs those are simply not relevant. You cannot also assume each H1-Bs children go to public school - mine didn't for a long time and when they did my wife volunteered there.

In fact think about this - the H1-Bs are degree holders educated by their own country at its expense - no American money was spent on their entire education.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#126

Post by akiselev » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:26 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #119

ark15 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1Bs residing in the US pay the same tax (including social security and medicare) as the citizens.(so if their kids need public education, they are also paying for it in a way) H1Bs are not entitled to unemployment benefits (or any form of government sponsored healthcare). In fact, technically, they are supposed to leave the country the same day they are fired otherwise they are illegally staying.

H1-B is a big step towards green card status for many people, and green card holders are entitled to all of these things.

After having paid the taxes with no safety net, the constant risk of deportation hanging over their heads, aaand a ridiculous green card process that can take a decade or more. (My parents are a biophysicist working for NASA and a mechE working for a printer company and it took us FOURTEEN YEARS).

14 years of taxes is quite a bit at an effective 35% rate without the promise of social security of any kind.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#127

Post by eru » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:27 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #115

eru wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 1: Either the money comes back to the US eventually, or if it doesn't, the Fed can just run slightly looser monetary policy. About 2: The solution is of course, to set up a second firm to compete with the first one. The wages saved should thus eventually go away from being excess profit to making prices cheaper for the consumer.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not.... > Either the money comes back to the US eventually, or if it doesn't That may be the most superfluous statement I've ever read. > The solution is of course, to set up a second firm to compete with the first one. The wages saved should thus eventually go away from being excess profit to making prices cheaper for the consumer. And it will put every local person out of a job, o…

> And it will put every local person out of a job, or force them to work for a wage lower than they were willing to accept in the first place, thus driving down minimum wage. That's a great way to turn your country into a developing one.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, either.

I hope, you know, wages are high in the rich world because of high productivity (in sectors that produce tradeable goods)? Not because we have _not_ allowed foreigners to come in. (And if I lived in a country where that was the case, I'd be off for a less fragile economy within days.)

Immigration used to be much easier in Europe and the USA in the 19th century. When those countries first became great.

Full disclosure: I am leaving Europe for Singapore. A country with a very business-friendly immigration policy.

> That's a great way to turn your country into a developing one.

Poland and a few other countries to the east of Germany joined the EU. Their inhabitants now have the right to work everywhere in the EU. Did wages in the rest of the rich parts of the EU fall down to Polish levels? No.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#128

Post by rayiner » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:34 PM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #126

rayiner wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1-B is a big step towards green card status for many people, and green card holders are entitled to all of these things.

After having paid the taxes with no safety net, the constant risk of deportation hanging over their heads, aaand a ridiculous green card process that can take a decade or more. (My parents are a biophysicist working for NASA and a mechE working for a printer company and it took us FOURTEEN YEARS). 14 years of taxes is quite a bit at an effective 35% rate without the promise of social security of any kind.

I'm not justifying the H1-B system. I'm justifying our country's exercise of controls on immigration.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#129

Post by geebee » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:35 PM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #116

geebee wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Are the employees entitled to the 'artificial' supply limitation created by national boundaries?" I agree, this is a good question, but I do think that you can answer "no" while still disagreeing with the premise of the H1B program. Another way to frame this would be. "Should the 'artificial' supply limitations created by national boundaries be enforced evenly across all sectors of the workforce?" I'm actually ok wi…

It seems to me that the H1-B was more a response to young Americans not entering various fields than the other way around. In machining, for example, companies all over the country from automotive to aerospace to medical to mom and pop machine shops are having trouble finding skilled workers. As many as 50-70% of respondents in major industry surveys are saying that a skilled worker shortage is a major problem for gr…

"It seems to me that the H1-B was more a response to young Americans not entering various fields than the other way around."

I think it may be a self-reinforcing cycle. A short term "shortage" may prompt the visa program, but this may suppress the increase in wages that would attract more US citizens to the field. Which can lead to greater shortages, more visas, and so forth. Enough iterations of this process and you get exactly what you have described - a "shortage" that is endemic to the entire field.

While I appreciate your response, I do think you weaken your argument by talking about shortages without discussing wages. The argument that someone tried to pay "market rate" doesn't resonate much with me either - if there's a shortage, you'd expect wages to go up, sometimes dramatically. I see no reason for the government to step in and prevent this.

We also probably disagree about "artificially" limiting the supply. Most of what we call "engineering" in the US is not subject to regulatory capture, like law or medicine. Anyone can hang out a shingle as a software developer. And by creating very specific visa programs for STEM fields while leaving other fields controlled either by regulatory capture or the simple requirement of current US residency rights while vastly expanding the pool of engineers through visa programs, we may be "artificially" increasing the supply of STEM workers relative to the rest of the workforce.

Lastly, I agree with you that it makes no sense to kick people who have gotten degrees in the US out of the country. Terrible idea. But we should ask why US citizens have abandoned these fields to the degree that they have. Some people will claim that it is educational failures, especially in math and science. However, keep in mind that the RAND institute conducted a large study and concluded that Americans are avoiding graduate degrees in STEM fields largely because these fields have fallen badly behind the pay and stability of other careers - in short, the "shortage" is a very rational response to market conditions.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html

This is why I'm favor of general skilled immigration programs, but I'm very skeptical of public policy based on an assumed shortage of STEM workers. Overall, I don't think the evidence supports the claims of a shortage.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#130

Post by honeybooboo » Tue, Oct 16, 2012, 8:41 PM UTC

Nowyouknow wrote: post #105

honeybooboo wrote: post #99

How can h1b employees be cheaper ? Arent they required by law to get the same amount of pay as american counterparts ? I think IBM would be breaking the rule of not paying them the legally required amount or circumventing that.

They're taken advantage of when it comes down to deciding a salary. It's a situation where an H1B has to take the lowball offer, or leave it and be completely screwed.

The problem here is that H1b people are being preferred over others because its is assumed that they are being paid less. There are laws to not let this happen.

The lowball offer if it is not prevailing wage is illegal. They are not allowed to work for less (there is a specific clause just for this) , just like other employees. And if the lowball offer is not less it aint no lowball offer.

../i am the queen of everything.