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IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

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Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#51
I'm currently involved with immigrating to Canada as a skilled worker, and I've previously worked in the US on multiple J1 visas, and applied for a H1B.

My take on all of this is that bringing in foreigners in this way destroys the whole supply and demand setup of jobs and employees.

As an example, let's say company A wants to hire a salaried employee for $x. After 6 months of not finding anyone, they should offer more money, etc. until eventually someone is found. If this is across the country for a given profession, then more students will be educated in that field, and the supply of employees will match the demand that has grown and salaries will go up and down in relation to how well the supply matches the demand.

With programs like the H1B and similar, when Company A doesn't find an employee for $x, they don't have to offer more money, they just bring in someone from overseas. In this way Company A is getting employees for less than the supply/demand equation says it should be able to in their local country.

This means Company A makes bigger profits, and people inside the given country are now earning a lower wage than they otherwise should be if Company A had to raise salaries because of a lack of supply of employees for the demand in the given field.

Here in Canada it happens all the time. All the big players (McDonalds, Wal-Mart, KFC, etc.) have an agreement with the govt. where they don't even have to go through the process to hire a foreign worker, it's automatically rubber stamped. When they can't find a local to work for minimum wage, they just bring in a foreigner to do it. So now even though there is not a supply of Canadians willing to work at KFC for minimum wage, KFC can fill those positions, have higher profits, and there are thousands (millions?) of people living in Canada with a standard of living below that which the average Canadian will accept. In my town tehre are lots of foreigners living 10 to a house because they don't earn enough money to do it any other way.

This is not a good thing for a country, or the people in it. It is a good thing for the big companies that now make bigger profits, thanks to being able to get employees at a lower salary.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#52
post #47

Please consider the following two points. What's the difference between them? 1. The US pushed free-market + lower tariffs for imports of products into other countries. This lead to lower production in those countries, replaced by imports from the US. Leading to lower employment in many cases. [Today that's replaced with imports from China] 2. Other countries export 'services' to the US, in the form of BPOs/KPOs, or…

Corporations are using free trade to introduce foreign-made goods at huge margins, while at the same time trying to prevent consumers from practicing price arbitrage.

If corporations were not artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), then there would be no issue with an open labor market.

But the corporations want to have their cake and eat it to. Free-trade means we get to sell you foreign-made goods at higher margins. Free-labor means we get to hire foreign workers are lower cost. Neither of things things are good for the US consumer, only the US corporation.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#53

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

The H1B issue is not simply salary as measured in absolute numbers. Naked salary numbers may be the visible tip of the iceberg but there are bigger issues to consider.

1. Most H1B workers are under 30, and most unemployed American programmers are over 35. This is by far the biggest part of the iceberg, made invisible by the fact that these people drop out of statistics.

2. Visa handcuffs are not slavery per say, but close enough. (If you think that's an overly dramatic statement, you are probably not an immigrant from some place you really don't want to be, like me, or someone whose family will quite literally starve if you don't send them money). People endure getting beat up by their husbands for 5 years straight for the sake of a green card, so there is no doubt they will endure long working hours and much more.

3. The whole "shortage of IT talent" hysteria is way overblown when you look at the actual numbers. Just one example, latest DICE salary report:

http://media.dice.com/report/2012-2011-dice-salary-survey/

Contrast the opening sentence:

Technology professionals enjoyed their largest annual salary growth since 2008, according to the 2012-2011 Salary Survey from Dice, the leading career site for technology and engineering professionals.

... with the actual numbers:

After two straight years of wages remaining nearly flat, tech professionals on average garnered salary increases of more than two percent, boosting their average annual wage to $81,327 from $79,384 in 2010.

So, let's see. While the inflation is chugging along at ~3% per year, we get 2 flat years, followed by a 1% increase? So basically, we make less money each year?

Is the tech industry an economic miracle? Are programmers the one must-have product whose prices get lower when it's in short supply and the buyers have pockets full of cash? Or is there a simpler explanation?

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#54

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

I work in the SAP space, My experience is most of the abuse is handled through 3rd parties. You will never be able to pin it on an IBM or an HP directly, but their will be 3rd party resourcing companies that will pull visas and force project members to live 2 to a room in a 2 bedroom apartment to save costs.

SAP is a space now? I thought it was a company.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in the SAP space, My experience is most of the abuse is handled through 3rd parties. You will never be able to pin it on an IBM or an HP directly, but their will be 3rd party resourcing companies that will pull visas and force project members to live 2 to a room in a 2 bedroom apartment to save costs.

SAP is a space now? I thought it was a company.

There is a whole eco-system of products and functionality and thus specialized skills. The term "SAP" can be used to describe R/3 or the company or the collection of products referred to as the Business Suite.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#56
post #51

I'm currently involved with immigrating to Canada as a skilled worker, and I've previously worked in the US on multiple J1 visas, and applied for a H1B. My take on all of this is that bringing in foreigners in this way destroys the whole supply and demand setup of jobs and employees. As an example, let's say company A wants to hire a salaried employee for $x. After 6 months of not finding anyone, they should offer mo…

The problem is that reality is messy. There are a lot of factors that gunk up a good theory. Higher demand can lead to higher wages if we restrict immigration, but if American students raw out of highschool are not thinking 5 to 10 years into their future when they pick a major, supply is not going to jump like the growing industry needs it to.

The issue is compounded when popular media artificially lowers the level of "glamor" in the industry. Shows like The Big Bang Theory are entertaining, but I don't think many people watch them and say "that is what I want to be a part of".

Now, of course individual companies can spike their salaries and pull in talented programmers, but I think most of those will be cannibalized from other companies. If supply is dwindling then raising wages can work for individual companies, but not I think for the industry as a whole.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#57

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

>> But my personal anecdotal experience

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#58
post #52
post #47

Please consider the following two points. What's the difference between them? 1. The US pushed free-market + lower tariffs for imports of products into other countries. This lead to lower production in those countries, replaced by imports from the US. Leading to lower employment in many cases. [Today that's replaced with imports from China] 2. Other countries export 'services' to the US, in the form of BPOs/KPOs, or…

Corporations are using free trade to introduce foreign-made goods at huge margins, while at the same time trying to prevent consumers from practicing price arbitrage. If corporations were not artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), then there would be no issue with an open labor market. But the corporations want to have th…

artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc),

Could you explain this in more detail?

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#59
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tier 1 was a different, independent visa - I think varjag is referring to the UK work permit system which works as described (except for the time length, which used to be 5 years but is now only 2 years) and has been that way for many years. The Tier 1 doesn't actually exist anymore, basically the only way you can work in the UK without EU citizenship or an ancestry visa is via a sponsored visa. In fact the rules…

It's obviously a populist move; making life complicated to skilled workers is perhaps the worst way to fight illegal migration. I've been to the UK last year for friends wedding; obtaining even a visitor visa was a humiliating process only a cavity search short from prison experience. So many people in EU/EEC somehow hold this idea that getting residence in their country is as easy as simply applying for it: probably…

I'm from the UK, and despite having interests in government I paid little attention to our immigration process until I started to look into that of the USA.

The problem is simple to sum up: highly skilled workers aren't going to sneak across the Channel Tunnel/Rio Grande very often. They'll stick to as-legal-as-possible means because generally they're respectable tradesmen, who've invested a lot of time/money in their skills and want to use them as best as they can.

Unfortunately, these government-encouraged means of immigration/foreign-workers are the easiest things to stop. Hence an 'immigration clampdown to save the jobs of the natives' really consists of blocking the vast majority of the foreigners you might actually want to move to your country.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#60

Tough economics questions: To what extent would these people still be willing to work for cheap if we let them immigrate and become legitimate Americans with a simple, easy process? Are they just willing to work for less in general, or is there a pattern of monopsonistic exploitation or other similar exploitation due to the legal process surrounding the H1-B process and how it is attached to an employer sponsor? If t…

I think the freedom aspect is critical in any policy change. The 'freedom', or lack thereof, is tied to what the sponsoring employer controls - the green card process. I would propose something along the lines of: 1) If a person receives an H1-B he/she is free to work for anyone they want [Open Work Permit]. This kicks in immediately - no waiting period. On a job change the H1-B holder sends a job change notice to US…

1.) Your H-1B isn't tied to your employer except during the application/renewal process. The rest of the time you're free to move around. However, every prospective employer will want to know about your visa status, and that new employer will have to work on your H-1B renewal. You're at the same negotiating disadvantage, because you only really compete with other H-1B holders.

2.) There already exist smooth processes to move from an H-1B to a green card. Unfortunately, that's usually tied to your employer. Changing jobs may restart the clock on you.

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