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IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

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Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#61

Post by makmanalp »

_delirium wrote: post #40
makmanalp wrote: post #22

disclaimer: It's possible that I end up being an H-1B worker eventually, I'm a foreigner working in the US, and I'm working on a website that helps people like me. > H-1B workers are cheaper than Americans — "and the cost difference is too great" for IBM not to look for foreign workers first. The H-1B statutes are designed to allow employers to legally pay H-1B workers less than Americans and IBM (and a lot of others…

In addition to this, companies are required to pay the prevailing wage for that profession and location to foreign workers, so that they can not undercut Americans (or at least that was what was intended). I have no idea how prevalent it is, but the mechanism I've heard for getting around these rules is to hire someone at a lower title than what they're qualified for, and then pay them the prevailing wage for that po…

This makes sense. But the company can get into pretty big trouble for doing that.

The nicest punishment is that they will be marked a willful violator and have to provide additional documentation for each H-1B. Or they can get debarred from getting H-1Bs. This makes no strategic sense for H-1B heavy companies.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#62

Post by makmanalp »

makmanalp wrote: post #22

disclaimer: It's possible that I end up being an H-1B worker eventually, I'm a foreigner working in the US, and I'm working on a website that helps people like me. > H-1B workers are cheaper than Americans — "and the cost difference is too great" for IBM not to look for foreign workers first. The H-1B statutes are designed to allow employers to legally pay H-1B workers less than Americans and IBM (and a lot of others…

I can't edit my comment but edit2:

It is also possible to become an H-1B dependent employer if you have over 15% H-1Bs, which requires you to provide extra attestations for each H-1B employee:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62C....

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#63

Post by 001sky »

gkamal wrote: post #15

After reading the section below from the WTO site I can't understand how such a practice of discriminating against foreign workers is compatible with free trade espoused and taken advantage of by developed countries. Protectionism in terms of differential pricing of goods in many cases to protect local industries and jobs is considered against free trade. This to me seems like a very opportunistic interpretation of f…

Protectionism in terms of differential pricing of goods in many cases to protect local industries and jobs is considered against free trade

-- People have associated liabilities, (human rights, etc) unlike goods (unecumbered economic assets).

That is why there is not free-trade in people. Goods do not come with the need for educating, healthcare, housing etc. The thrust of your argument is correct, in that yes this is a form of protectionism. But its more an issue of political economy than economics in the narrow sense. The narrow sense economic argument is, therefore, arguably misplaced in this context. Its conclusions do not follow.[1]

But it's not a bad question, and certainly one that deserves a good answer and careful consideration at all levels. Hope this helps.

___________________

[1] Think of similar narrow-scope-argument: why don't we buy/sell people like commodities? Instead, we find it politically acceptavle to have a market for ony the labour. Etcs.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#64

Post by rayiner »

nullc wrote: post #30
greggman wrote: post #11

If there's a smoking gun for IBM great, fine $$$$$$$ IBM. But my personal anecdotal experience is that the companies I've worked for pay the same for HB-1 vs local. They don't look at it as trying to find cheap employees. They look at as trying to find qualified employees anywhere, world wide. Companies I've worked for, Virgin Games (run by a British immigrant), Shiny Entertainment (also run by a British immigrant an…

I've seen many kinds of H1B employment. People with excellent skills and experience being paid competitive wages, people with reasonable skills being exploited at low wages at the clear expense of locals, and people who were hardly qualified to warm a seat being pulled in to pad up some contract as cheaply as possible. As usually when you paint with broad strokes you cover some dissimilar surfaces. But at the core th…

A country is a community. Multinational companies don't want people to believe that, but it's true. A community is entitled to control its membership.

An H-1B is not just a contract between employer and employee. It is a contract between a foreigner and a community. We the community agree to make that person one of us. To educate his or her children at the public expense. To allow him or her to affect our elections. To protect him or her in case of war. To extend our limited social safety net in case he or she falls on hard times. We should not be strong-armed into taking on these obligations. We need to expand our community, but in an organized way that benefits the whole, not just in whatever way benefits multinational organizations that increasingly seem to see themselves as outside the community.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#65

Post by debacle »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #58
debacle wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are using free trade to introduce foreign-made goods at huge margins, while at the same time trying to prevent consumers from practicing price arbitrage. If corporations were not artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), then there would be no issue with an open labor market. But the corporations want to have th…

artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), Could you explain this in more detail?

I think the most simple example is software. I don't know about Windows 7, but I know Windows Vista was 1/4th the price in China as it was in the US.

Prescription medications in other countries often cost far lower than in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescription_drug_prices_in_the....

A coke in India costs half the price as it does in the US.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#66

Post by spqr »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #58
debacle wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are using free trade to introduce foreign-made goods at huge margins, while at the same time trying to prevent consumers from practicing price arbitrage. If corporations were not artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), then there would be no issue with an open labor market. But the corporations want to have th…

artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), Could you explain this in more detail?

The Supreme Court is considering a case now where a publishing company sued someone from Thailand for selling books they purchase in Thailand in the United States.

http://www.cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2012/09/07...

So the textbook publishing company sells a book for $400 in the United States but $10 in Thailand. Then sues anyone that buys it for $10 in Thailand and then sells it for $25 in the United States. This is the very definition of inflating the cost of living for the US Consumer.

It is also one of the major reasons why we have things like region-encoded DVDs.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#67

Post by rayiner »

Tech companies and their approach to labor is just sickening. They complain constantly that we don't let in enough H1B's. Are they offering to indemnify the government in case they need healthcare, unemployment; their children need public education, etc? They complain constantly that the publicly funded universities don't graduate enough STEM graduates to meet their needs. Think about that--they complain with no hint of irony that the public doesn't train enough workers for them at the public expense!

And let's not even start on collusion to keep down salaries, non-competes and other bullshit.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#68

Post by debacle »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #58
debacle wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are using free trade to introduce foreign-made goods at huge margins, while at the same time trying to prevent consumers from practicing price arbitrage. If corporations were not artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), then there would be no issue with an open labor market. But the corporations want to have th…

artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), Could you explain this in more detail?

spqr, you look to be hellbanned on HN. You might want to email PG and find out why.

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#69

Post by mahyarm »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #58
debacle wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are using free trade to introduce foreign-made goods at huge margins, while at the same time trying to prevent consumers from practicing price arbitrage. If corporations were not artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), then there would be no issue with an open labor market. But the corporations want to have th…

artificially inflating the cost of living for the US consumer (through the cost of medicine, software, textbooks, food, clothing, etc), Could you explain this in more detail?

Medicine is charged at significantly higher prices in the USA compared to even other developed nations, such as most of europe or Canada

Software and media is often charged at different discriminatory prices. DVD region codes point to this fact. You can buy identical gray market 'international edition' textbooks in English often at prices less than half of the US edition.

Clothing is often charged at many multiples of the real price it cost to produce, design and market. A market in Asia will show you how different it really is.

Etc

Re: IBM: The cost difference is too great for business not to look for H1B workers

#70

Post by gkamal »

001sky wrote: post #63
gkamal wrote: post #15

After reading the section below from the WTO site I can't understand how such a practice of discriminating against foreign workers is compatible with free trade espoused and taken advantage of by developed countries. Protectionism in terms of differential pricing of goods in many cases to protect local industries and jobs is considered against free trade. This to me seems like a very opportunistic interpretation of f…

Protectionism in terms of differential pricing of goods in many cases to protect local industries and jobs is considered against free trade -- People have associated liabilities, (human rights, etc) unlike goods (unecumbered economic assets). That is why there is not free-trade in people. Goods do not come with the need for educating, healthcare, housing etc. The thrust of your argument is correct, in that yes this i…

Thanks. I appreciate the difference and understand the need for taking other things into consideration for allowing immigration.

But most of the arguments made in this thread and other similar debates - the main point is about the economics associated with it. By not allowing companies to pay lower wages to foreign workers the wages of the local market is being protected.

In the short term bringing down the wages would be unfair to the employees in the local market - as they have probably paid a higher price to acquire education, healthcare, housing etc. But in the longer term those inefficiencies would also get addressed.

The same argument applies to opening up the markets for goods and services. In the short term the local producers of goods are subjected to competition which will result in many of them going out of business which indirectly effects the people employed by them.

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