How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized • Hacker News Board

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#851

Post by lossolo » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:08 AM UTC

DrScientist wrote: post #838

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

Sadly I think you are mistaken to paint it as an irrational Israel lashing out - that's too generous. I think it's quite the opposite - there has been a very clear, cold, calculated strategy - which is to use the conflict as an cover for doing what some in the government have always wanted to do ( and been quite open about it ) - which is to create a greater Israel - drive out all Palestinians from the river to the s…

This, for Israel it was a perfect pretext. Netanyahu financed Hamas through Qatar for years because he knew that Hamas is a destructive force for Palestinians and their struggle for nationhood. It was a cold, cynical decision. He exploited the anger and emotions of the people after October 7th to justify what he is doing now.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#852

Post by corimaith » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:09 AM UTC

churchill wrote: post #637

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel lost the information/media war so damn badly that it may genuinely not recover from this Israel probably came out ahead if all they lost is prestige. They've neutered Iran and become the de facto regional security power. Their weapons and military have been validated, which makes than a desirable trading partner in an increasingly-militarising world. And they're turning into a gas exporter. Worst case, a gen…

You may not realize it but Israel is slowly becoming Rhodesia/Apartheid South Africa. And i don't mean the word 'apartheid' as a cudgel. During the Rhodesian Bush War, their forces ran circles around the ZIPRA and ZANLA with multiple battles and encounters where they'd routinely record 500:1 KD ratios like Operation Dingo, etc. They had complete freedom of action to bomb any infrastructure obstructing them, reach dee…

>America's voting demographic for the next 40 years has begun to see Israel as a genocidal terrorist state. They will be voting for the next 50 years, while the boomer evangelicals die off.

The pro-palestine progressives are rapidly loosing political power, if not being targeted right now by the Trumpian administration. The National Conservatives may be isolationist regarding free funding, but they certainly aren't going to sanctioning Israel or ending arms sales, while Pro-Palestine is pretty much a useful proxy as is for them to signify "un-americans".

Furthermore, the sanctions on South Africa occurred within the context of the Liberal International Era where one could afford to alienate a state in a region with little importance. But it's posters like you that have been calling for the so-called multipolar world, which is where NGOs and Human Rights will be sidelined in favour of a Westphalian-Type Sovereignity whereby hard interests decide foreign policy, not human rights concerns. In that Realist context, it is virtually within complete interests for the Gulf States and other actors to align with Israel over Iran, the former which has proven itself militairly and acts accordingly to economic interest, whereas the latter is bordering on a failed state still motivated by irrational hegemonic concerns. In the same context, a Palestinian states that takes over Israel basically will likely be detrimental to the other actors.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#853

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:21 AM UTC

emmelaich wrote: post #686

pyuser583 wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel gave Hamas seed funding back in the 1980s. They thought it would weaken the PLO. This was when the US funding the Taliban. Having pet Jihandis' was cool back then.

More recently, USA gave ('returned') $1.7 billion to Iran. Of course a large chunk of that has gone to Hamas and Hezbollah and numerous other interests that destabilise Israel and Western powers. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-united-states-iran-an...

[deleted]

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#854

Post by estearum » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:25 AM UTC

mikeen wrote: post #788

estearum wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what's happening is that you are describing pro-Palestinian protests as pro-Hamas and then acting confused. You only confused yourself! Hamas is absolutely a terrorist organization but Israel has revealed itself as a terrorist state. I hold one to a higher bar because I pay for the bombs that one side drops.

A terrorist state does not need to be "baited" to attack. It is absolutely correct to hold the state to higher standards, regardless of what you pay for. But it is not correct to refuse state's right to defend itself, when it is attacked by a terrorist semi-state that not only does not care about its people, but actively using them as bait. This only incentivizing Hamas to keep using Palestinians as bait, and to turn…

Actually it's quite possible that a state exists with Dominant Political Regime A at one point in time, then after an event, they transition to Dominant Political Regime B.

In fact this is what did happen, as is plainly obvious. October 7th effectively stripped the moderating forces in Israeli politics of their power.

Agreed the incentives are fucked up in every direction. For example, giving Israel impunity to respond to such attacks with extremely aggressive pursuit of related and unrelated geopolitical objectives actually creates an incentive for Israel to sustain such attacks from time to time.

This was actually Netanyahu's explicit strategy: allow Hamas to take power in Gaza so no credible government could achieve a second state in the region.

> “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"

Creating such perverse incentives is sort of the entire point of terrorism.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visit...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas...

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-...

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-09/ty-article/.p...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#855

Post by JumpCrisscross » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:28 AM UTC

zimza wrote: post #772

bamboozled wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you could say Ukraine were backed into a corner, multiple times, they didn't resort to October 7 levels of horror either. In fact, there is not a single documented case where they have attacked civilians or civilian infrastructure. So while I'm not closed to the idea that Netanyahu is a bad man. I find it hard to rationalize the actions of the people who were "backed into a corner"?

The civilians are not living and partying on Ukrainian land, next to an open air prison. Killing civilians is bad, killing soldiers invading your land is protected by international law. October 7 is a tragic grain of sand in an desert of horrors the palestinian people suffered for nearly a century.

> civilians are not living and partying on Ukrainian land

Crimea contains multiple resorts! (And they've been selectively targeted when political and military elites are present [1].)

[1] https://www.msn.com/en-my/news/other/ukrainian-drones-strike...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#856

Post by bombcar » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:28 AM UTC

yibg wrote: post #689

holmesworcester wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel's main best option is to give Palestinians, at least those unambiguously born under Israel's control, the right to vote in Israeli federal elections. A government that can kick down the door of the house you were born in has a duty to give you voting rights. (And if your ethnic group is denied voting rights, you have a basic duty to your fellow man to raise hell until you get those rights, because arbitrary st…

Without some strong general protection isn't that just 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner? Seems at least some basic guaranteed rights and freedoms is needed.

Guaranteed by whom?

No guarantee is worth anything if it’s not eventually backed up by someone’s guns.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#857

Post by dlahoda » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:30 AM UTC

lossolo wrote: post #851

DrScientist wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly I think you are mistaken to paint it as an irrational Israel lashing out - that's too generous. I think it's quite the opposite - there has been a very clear, cold, calculated strategy - which is to use the conflict as an cover for doing what some in the government have always wanted to do ( and been quite open about it ) - which is to create a greater Israel - drive out all Palestinians from the river to the s…

This, for Israel it was a perfect pretext. Netanyahu financed Hamas through Qatar for years because he knew that Hamas is a destructive force for Palestinians and their struggle for nationhood. It was a cold, cynical decision. He exploited the anger and emotions of the people after October 7th to justify what he is doing now.

any links for research proving you state?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#858

Post by SapporoChris » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:32 AM UTC

rozab wrote: post #714

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wild to me how many people here use the "it's war, bad things happen" to justify the situation The point is to distinguish this war from how others have been fought. A lot of accusations against the IDF's conduct have been baseless. Not wrong in that they're factually incorrect. Just wrong in that it's how everyone else fights wars when they go to war. This is different. America didn't trigger a famine in Iraq or A…

The US-led sanctions regime against Iraq in the 90s did lead to high rates of malnutrition and excess deaths, with Madeleine Albright publicly insisting that half a million dead children would be 'worth it'.

Two things: She wrote, "I had fallen into a trap and said something I did not mean", in her memoir. https://archive.org/details/madamsecretary00albr_0 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright#Sanctions_a...

Tangentially related: On the other hand, several later surveys conducted during the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq (2003–2011) "all put the U5MR in Iraq during 1995–2000 in the vicinity of 40 per 1000," suggesting that "there was no major rise in child mortality in Iraq after 1990 and during the period of the sanctions." from same link above.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#859

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:34 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #837

estearum wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Very very early on we knew (verifiable objective fact) that Israel used very different math on combatant:civilian casualty ratios than coalition forces in OEF and OIF. This isn't "they're waging a more intense war and accidentally killing more people" -- it is that their actual decision framework was to authorize killings with several multiples higher ratios of civilian deaths than the US authorized in th…

The US military math for calculating combatant:civilian casualty ratios was, to quote: every boy 15 and over killed in drone strikes now is automatically listed as an enemy combatant This math is why the civilian casualty numbers from US military shows almost zero deaths for drone strikes. The New York Times reported in the 29 May 2012 article Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will: Mr. Obama…

[deleted]

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#860

Post by JumpCrisscross » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 11:39 AM UTC

Hikikomori wrote: post #410

nradov wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genocide is a terrible thing. But that doesn't mean the USA has any obligation to directly intervene in foreign conflicts. Most of these aren't worth sacrificing the life of a single US soldier, and even when we do intervene it often makes the situation worse. Unless critical US national interests are involved, our actions should usually be limited to sanctions and diplomacy. (I am commenting on the general US policy…

Most of the time US sells the weapons used to do the genocide. This time they're just giving them away, and that is what a lot of Americans have a problem with.

> Most of the time US sells the weapons used to do the genocide

We sold weapons to Burma, China, Russia, ISIS, Sudan and Somaliland [1]?

We're absolutely complicit in Gaza, the DRC f/k/a Zaire and Bosnia. And we helped defend the Yazidi and Ukrainians. Honestly, looking at the list, that's a better record than Russia or China have had since WWII.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides