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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#991

Post by CRConrad »

bombcar wrote: post #185
chongli wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brigading has no place in open source communities. There are some members of the Rust community who believe C is obsolete and that C programmers should either switch to Rust or get out of the way. This is an extremely toxic attitude that has no place in the Linux kernel! The fact remains: Rust doesn’t solve all of C’s problems. It trades them off for a whole lot of new problems, many of which are challenging to addre…

The solution will be to rewrite the kernel in Zig!

Naah, COBOL.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#992

Post by CRConrad »

bezier-curve wrote: post #764
bezier-curve wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has nothing to do with someone trying to ironically gatekeep me from commenting on Linus' public behavior in response to my comment about gatekeeping.

Love how people can be openly hostile towards me on this website, and I get downvotes and misdirected frustration for pointing it out.

Oh, bullpucky. People are hostile towards you because A) you employed ludicrously tendential wording, and B) when this was pointed out to you, you refused to own up to it -- or, more probably, to even realise or acknowledge it to yourself. In stead you went on to whine about "gatekeeping".

This kind of rant is typical of the public behaviour of the (typically young and "woke") modern social-media "developer" crowd, and your behaviour here only illustrates why so many dislike them. If there are any "hive mind effects" here, they're in your mind.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#993

Post by CRConrad »

chaorace wrote: post #379
akudha wrote: post #109

One thing that I notice often - people just do not take 5 minutes to appreciate someone or send 5 dollars to a project that they use daily etc. Not just in the software world, but life in general. Someone I know works full time, takes care of her two kids, takes care of her husband. Kids are almost teens now, but she gets zero support from them or her husband. Or even an occasional thanks. I see this everywhere, this…

> Kids are almost teens now, but she gets zero support from them or her husband This is a good analogy. Children are the people who they've been raised to become, so it stands to reason that people will give money and appreciation in the same ways that these things are originally given to them. These things are social constructs; we are inevitably taught how to use them by way of social dynamics. This is all to say t…

> A local

*maximum

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#994

Post by CRConrad »

neoden wrote: post #401

With all due respect to the effort.. Projects built around unsupported ways to use someone else's products, aren't they doomed from the very start? This race that you can't win isn't it a recipe for imminent burnout? I don't even mean that Apple has no interest in this project in the best case, but why Linux maintainers would want to accept changes that are necessary to support such a marginal use case?

> unsupported ways to use someone else's products [Emphasis added -- CRC]

So we're now officially acknowledging that the ostensible "owners" of Apple products don't really own their machines at all; Apple does?

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#995

Post by infamouscow »

sangnoir wrote: post #506
ecshafer wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust, which is a language I really enjoy, generates more social media outrage and religious wars than any other technical project I have been following for the past 20 years.

There's something about Rust that draws Zealots (or draws out zealotry in people). It's not at Haskell's level, but there are several culty elements for the fanatics: secret knowledge, being 'chosen' or set aside from the ignorant plebians, and an unshakable belief in a form of rapture when the language will inevitably win when everyone realizes the superiority of monads/memory safety.

They have no moral or ethical foundation that's outside of themselves. When someone presents something that looks, sounds, and feels like morality, they latch on. Cults and gangs work in a similar manner, taking advantage of that which is lacking.

Try asking a Rust zealot to give three different real world examples where someone should pick C++ over Rust, they can't do it. The zealots are literally incapable of viewing anything other than Rust as divine.

Every experience I've have with Rust people has been negative and worthless, so I view Rust as a major red flag on resumes when hiring :)

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#996

Post by reshlo »

daurentius523 wrote: post #954
reshlo wrote: post #949

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The maintainers in question did not ask for people to add Rust to the kernel. They have no obligation to be welcoming to it. Their boss, however, did ask for it, so yes, they do have an obligation to be welcoming to it.

"Their boss" - I'm not sure that boss is best word here. "did ask for it" - did he? Because from my perspective it looks more like he gave the bone for corporations so they will shut up for rust in kernel. After some time it will end up "Sorry but rust did not have enough support - maintainers left and there were issues with language - well back to C"

In what way is the sole person who decides whether code gets merged into Linux not the boss of everyone who writes code for Linux?

I addressed your second point here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43075508

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#997

Post by reshlo »

mardifoufs wrote: post #340
reshlo wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The workplace equivalent is you publishing a whistle blowing article against a team in your company because they'd not accept a pull request you worked very hard on. The workplace equivalent is your CEO making a public statement that your work is to be supported, then not firing people who openly gloat about their intent to sabotage your work.

I mean, I hope that you'd get fired for trying to publicly shame people who you see as trying to "sabotage" you in any normal corporation, regardless of how much your vision aligns with the CEO's lol. Not that it even makes sense to call it sabotage considering that most people that were involved in the original debate (in the rust for Linux side) didn't see it like that, that the normal kernel development processes…

NACKs of bad Rust code, or Rust code that you don’t want in the system that you maintain, would be fine. The specific NACK at issue here was a NACK of code that used a maintainer’s API from a language that he didn’t like, which Linus has confirmed is not allowed.

> Maintainers like Hellwig who do not want to integrate Rust do not have to. But they also cannot dictate the language or manner of code that touches their area of control but does not alter it. The pull request Hellwig objected to "DID NOT TOUCH THE DMA LAYER AT ALL," Torvalds writes (all-caps emphasis his), and was "literally just another user of it, in a completely separate subdirectory."

> "Honestly, what you have been doing is basically saying 'as a DMA maintainer I control what the DMA code is used for.' And that is not how any of this works," Torvalds writes.

> Torvalds writes Hellwig that "I respect you technically, and I like working with you," and that he likes when Hellwig "call[s] me out on my bullshit," as there "needs to be people who just stand up to me and tell me I'm full of shit." But, Torvalds writes, "Now I'm calling you out on YOURS."

> The leader goes on to state that maintainers who want to be involved in Rust can be, and can influence what Rust bindings look like. Those who "are taking the 'I don't want to deal with Rust' option," Torvalds writes, can do so—later describing it as a "wall of protection"—but also have no say on Rust code that builds on their C interfaces.

> "Put another way: the 'nobody is forced to deal with Rust' does not imply 'everybody is allowed to veto any Rust code.'" Maintainers might also find space in the middle, being aware of Rust bindings and working with Rust developers, but not actively involved, Torvalds writes.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/linux-leaders-pave-a...

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#998

Post by CRConrad »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #569
chongli wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say Rust for Linux community, I said Rust community. Here's an example [1]. You don't have to search online forums and mailing lists very long to find countless others like this. The problem with the brigading (which has been done by the Rust for Linux community) is that it invites these zealots into the conversation. It's totally inappropriate and not at all constructive towards a compromise. Plus the state…

The Phoronix forum is not a good example of anything except hate and toxicity, no matter the subject.

Yeah, marcan said so too,on his blog. There's only one place worse on the Internet, according to him... HN.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#999

Post by CRConrad »

follower wrote: post #928
fargle wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seconded. even if it was completely true criticism, which it categorically is not, putting up a half-page banner is extremely gauche and immature. saying things like "an organized attempt to destroy lives, including of developers in our communities" is patently not true. trolls get flagged. honest nice people who don't agree with you aren't trying to destroy anything and nor do they hate you.

I'm unsure whether the most charitable reading of your comment is to assume you missed that these linked phrases exist on the original site but were not included in the text copied into the comment above, or something else: * "bad actors" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms * "destroy lives" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Suicides_of_harassm... While you may be correct that initial "t…

> I'm unsure whether the most charitable reading of your comment is to assume you missed that these linked phrases exist on the original site but were not included in the text copied into the comment above, or something else:

> * "bad actors" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms

> * "destroy lives" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Suicides_of_harassm...

As has already been pointed out, HN isn't "Kiwi Farms" (whatever that is), so WTF does that have to do with their whining specifically about HN???

> While you may be correct that initial "trolls get flagged", the statement on the Asahi site agrees that while the initial comment may be flagged & killed, the other comments in the subthread are still indexed, visible & tend not to get moderated/flag:

> "Unfortunately, when a comment is flagged and killed, its child subthread is not. [...] but the reduced moderation activity enables abuse to continue. Although you don't see those threads, search engines do."

And what's the problem with, I assume they mean, not all comments in subthreads of dead comments also being automatically killed? I read HN with "Show dead" on, so I get to see those with a simple click of "[... more]", and I usually open them. What I've found is that the absolute majority of these responses are sensible comments pointing out what's wrong with the original inappropriate comment.

So the "problem" they're complaining about is not only not a problem; it's actually the remedy for that exact issue. The banner is not only childishly whiny, but actually self-contradictory. In short, it's stupid.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#1000

Post by CRConrad »

fzeroracer wrote: post #106
satvikpendem wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They require an account with showdead enabled so they are not being indexed by default.

That's not correct, the point is that while the comment might be flag-killed, the subsequent posts in that thread are not and are visible to search engines. For example: if you go to this post [1] from the prior thread while in private/incognito/whatever mode you can see the posts underneath a flagged comment even though you can't see the comment itself. And there are some comments there by other users that, despite…

No, IMO that point is wrong and stupid: I surf HN with Showdead on, so I've seen that the overwhelming majority of responses to dead comments are pushback on whatever got the parent comment flagged in the first place. So if any content here gets "unduly emphasised" this way, it's anti-"evil" content.
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