Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And then he can't help himself. After being so reasonable, he throws shade on Rust. Shade that is just unfortunately, just false? Many discussions online (and offline) suffer from a huge-group of people who just can't stop themselves from making their knee-jerk reactions public, and then not thinking about it more. I remember the "Filesystem in Rust" video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPp9YEBV0Q&t=1529s ) whe…
If you watch that YouTube link, you'll see the same guy Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust". I think he apologised for this flagrant comment, but this email shows he hasn't changed his behaviour in the slightest.
Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
371–380 of 1001 posts
Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
#372Sometimes I wish I was so passionate, whereas my philosophy in life towards strangers is a much simpler “fuck you, or pay me”. It allows me to sleep fairly well at night.
I have a few toy projects on GitHub, a couple of which gained a tiny bit of popularity, and I simply ignored every new feature request that I didn’t need, and especially those large PRs “here, I refactored your code to make it functional and it’s so much better now”. I simply said, with no regret: “I won’t merge this, feel free to fork the project, if it’s better I might even switch myself to your project!”. Some got mad, but I truly and genuinely couldn’t care less.
Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
#373It’s absurd that the C/C++ community is so hard-headed about Rust. Is the Linux kernel in fifty years still going to be written in the same language it is now?
Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
#374Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed... ) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line"), it does a good job of explaining the difficulties that Linux maintainers face and why they make the choices they do. It makes sense to be extremely adversarial about accepting code because they're on the hook for maintaining…
> And then he can't help himself. After being so reasonable, he throws shade on Rust. Shade that is just unfortunately, just false? Many discussions online (and offline) suffer from a huge-group of people who just can't stop themselves from making their knee-jerk reactions public, and then not thinking about it more. I remember the "Filesystem in Rust" video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPp9YEBV0Q&t=1529s ) whe…
Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the US, this is a reference to the belief that members of law enforcement should be loyal folirst to other members of law enforcement and only secondarily to the law. Or at least that is how I have always understood it.
It seems obvious that that’s not what Ted intended it to mean, since it wouldn’t even make sense in this context (the debate doesn’t really seem to be about whether maintainers should be loyal to other maintainers). A more charitable interpretation would be “we’re the only line of defense protecting something good and valuable from the outside world, so people should give significant weight to our opinions and decisi…
Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
#376Earlier quoted context omitted.
That was a large part of the disagreement. Rust developers were saying it would be their job to do this. But then someone said Linus rejected something because it broke Rust. GKH backed the Rust developers and said that was an exception not a rule, but didn't know Linus' stance for sure. Then Linus chimes in because of one of Hector's replies, but at the time of my reading did not clarify what his actual stance is he…
> but at the time of my reading did not clarify what his actual stance is here. Whatever he says is guaranteed to piss off at least one side of the argument.
At the rate we're going here the existing kernel devs will alienate any capable new blood, and Linux will eventually become Google Linux(TM) as the old guard goes into retirement and the only possible way forward is through money.
Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which is a moot point because the agreement right now is that Rust code is allowed to break, so the C developer in question can just ignore Rust, and a Rust person will take care of it for them.
> Which is a moot point because the agreement right now is that Rust code is allowed to break, so the C developer in question can just ignore Rust So then the argument that even semantics encoded in the Rust types, can be out of the date compared to the actual code, is actually a real thing? I read that somewhere else here in the comments, but didn't understand how the types could ever be out-of-date, but this would…
Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
#378A person can be in a tough spot personally and then things seem to spiral out of control around them because that just cannot be 100% isolated from professional stuff or other spheres of life. It seems like this might have happened to Hector based on the post. We've all been there and that part is completely understandable. > I get that some people might not have liked my Mastodon posts. Yes, I can be abrasive someti…
> That’s not ok. Then entertain his question and tell us what is? Bringing up people’s attention to the matter to finally somehow resolve the situation is his last resort, after spending years trying to upstream even trivial patches. You can eat your cake and have it too - you can’t say you want rust in the kernel and then sabotage any upstreaming efforts
In this particular case, Hector himself with the blog post hints at it, but a lot of damage has been done already: "I am working on personal issues currently, I'd like to step back for a while and will not be contributing. Thank you, all".
> Bringing up people’s attention to the matter to finally somehow resolve the situation
Not everything has a clear and fast resolution. I think Hector's team were hoping the resolution to be "Shut up everyone, we're doing Rust now, this is all merging in and that's that!". But it could have been "Shut up everyone, we're not doing Rust any longer". They would have been even more upset saying "this is a leadership failure, they're on the wrong side of history" and so on.
> you can’t say you want rust in the kernel and then sabotage any upstreaming efforts
Two wrongs don't make a right though. Call people out and ask them to explain their position, get others on your side. But threatening to drag their names all over Bluesky or X or Reddit or whatever latest thing is, is not productive, even more so it's anti-productive.
Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
#379One thing that I notice often - people just do not take 5 minutes to appreciate someone or send 5 dollars to a project that they use daily etc. Not just in the software world, but life in general. Someone I know works full time, takes care of her two kids, takes care of her husband. Kids are almost teens now, but she gets zero support from them or her husband. Or even an occasional thanks. I see this everywhere, this…
This is a good analogy. Children are the people who they've been raised to become, so it stands to reason that people will give money and appreciation in the same ways that these things are originally given to them. These things are social constructs; we are inevitably taught how to use them by way of social dynamics. This is all to say that people love to support their darlings... but they've been socially conditioned to expect reciprocity in all transactions. That's how the sausage is made in content-based monetization -- you produce the actual product at a loss and then try to claw it back selling high-margin merchandise that nobody'd ever buy otherwise. The merch acts as social permission to finally do your part and pay the creators.
To risk stating the obvious: this is not a good thing and I think the majority of people would likewise agree. People should be fairly rewarded for their work and we should desire a culture which openly and freely encourages doing so. Culture, however, reflects society. The society we've created is transactional, so that's how people frame the spending of their money and efforts -- indeed, "spending" and "transaction" are practically interchangeable in our collective lexicon. Effort isn't strictly scarce in the same way eggs are, however, so we fail to value it.
> I don't know if this is the case around the world (probably is?) and I don't know what the solution is. It just sucks
It's not a total disaster... so we'll undoubtedly continue to ignore the cracks in the foundation. Martin still got paid good money for his efforts and it was good for him for a time. That podcast you like will sell enough t-shirts and get the rent paid on time, at least for a little while longer. This seems to be about as good as we've collectively agreed to make the world for the time being. A local maxima, so to speak: we've gotten stuck asking for more when less might do better. With a bit of luck and effort, however, we can still catch that pendulum when it eventually begins swinging in the other direction. That's my hope, anyway! For the time being I try to do the things I'd like to see become normal in a more decent world -- sharing generously, paying for the things I like, etc. -- because hopeless accelerationism is for chumps.
Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead
#380Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you watch that YouTube link, you'll see the same guy Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust". I think he apologised for this flagrant comment, but this email shows he hasn't changed his behaviour in the slightest.
His email seems very reasonable to me (the thin-blue-line comment is a bit weird though). To me the problem are that some Rust people seem to expect that the Linux maintainers (that put in a tremendous amount of work) just have to go out of their way to help them achieve their goals - even if the maintainers are not themselves convinced about it and later have to carry the burden.