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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#261

Post by gpm »

keyme wrote: post #179

Perhaps it is no longer realistic to push such a huge changeset into linux anymore. Could this be solved with some hypervisor layer? That is, a hypervisor doing most of the work (in rust) and a small support layer upstreamed into the kernel? Of course, no actual virtualization is even necessary. Just some kind of ABI to the kernel running underneath.

There was a proposal to do something like what you suggest in redox: https://www.redox-os.org/news/rsoc-2023-eny-1/

I'm not sure how much work has actually been put into it though.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#263

Post by judofyr »

nindalf wrote: post #93

Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed... ) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line"), it does a good job of explaining the difficulties that Linux maintainers face and why they make the choices they do. It makes sense to be extremely adversarial about accepting code because they're on the hook for maintaining…

> "which is actively hostile to a second Rust compiler implementation" - except that isn't true?

Historically the Rust community has been extremely hostile towards gccrs. Many have claimed that the work would be detrimental to Rust as a language since it would split the language in two (despite gccrs constantly claiming they're not trying to do that). I'm not sure if it was an opinion shared by the core team, but if you just browse Reddit and Twitter you would immediately see a bunch of people being outright hostile towards gccrs. I was very happy to see that blog post where the Rust leadership stepped up to endorse it properly.

Just one reference: In one of the monthly updates that got posted on Reddit (https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/1g1343h/an_update_on_...) a moderator had to write this:

> Hi folks, because threads on gccrs have gotten detailed in the past, a reminder to please adhere to the subreddit rules by keeping criticism constructive and keeping things in perspective.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#264

Post by asksomeoneelse »

danw1979 wrote: post #110
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's deeply ironic that he's complaining about kernel maintainers supposedly forming secret cliques. However... this is the same man who made a sock puppet V-Tuber account, and acts in every way like they are two people; even though they've accidentally on-stream shared the system username, shared they have exactly the same kernel version, same KDE configuration, same login, same time zone, even (if I recall correctl…

How does having an alter-ego make it deeply ironic that he complains about secret cliques? I don’t get it. I’ve been supporting Hector since week 1 of the Asahi project and I think it’s a shame he’s thrown in the towel but I can understand why. I don’t know enough about kernel development to have an opinion about about the Kernel policy of “no aliases” for contributions. I certainly don’t care that some people think…

Having an alter-ego is one thing, but I strongly suspect that he had at least one sock puppet here during the drama with HN [0]

* a brand new account suddenly appears, defending Marcan's behavior (the only comment/post ever of this account) with a very similar writing style

* Marcan immediately "notices" the new comment while doing "random search" (how ? he claims he doesn't browse HN, and even posted a screenshot of news.ycombinator.com being routed to 0.0.0.0 to block his own access to it the day before)

* Marcan highlights the comment in question on his media account [1], praising them "at least [this commenter] gets it"

Only circumstantial stuff, but sure smells very fishy to me.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35400352

[1] https://archive.ph/zdVbA

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#265

Post by ChocolateGod »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #254
diggan wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a kernel developer, and never done anything of the sorts either. But, I think the argument is that if they have two versions of something (the C version + the Rust bindings), the logic/behavior/"semantics" of the C version would need to be encoded into the Rust types, and if a C-only developer changes the C version only, how are they supposed to proceed with updating the Rust bindings if they don't want to wr…

That was a large part of the disagreement. Rust developers were saying it would be their job to do this. But then someone said Linus rejected something because it broke Rust. GKH backed the Rust developers and said that was an exception not a rule, but didn't know Linus' stance for sure. Then Linus chimes in because of one of Hector's replies, but at the time of my reading did not clarify what his actual stance is he…

> but at the time of my reading did not clarify what his actual stance is here.

Whatever he says is guaranteed to piss off at least one side of the argument.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#266

Post by throwaway2037 »

nindalf wrote: post #93

Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed... ) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line"), it does a good job of explaining the difficulties that Linux maintainers face and why they make the choices they do. It makes sense to be extremely adversarial about accepting code because they're on the hook for maintaining…

Thank you to share the Ted T'so LKM post. Can you explain the culture reference "thin blue line"? I never heard it before.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#267

Post by bayindirh »

mschuster91 wrote: post #243
seba_dos1 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just that "people are hard" - it was clear that this will end up this way the moment marcan started ranting on social media about having to send kernel patches via e-mails. Collaborating on software development is a social activity and stuff like convincing maintainers to trust you and your approach is just as important part of it (if not more important) as writing code. Not realizing that is a sure road to…

> it was clear that this will end up this way the moment marcan started ranting on social media about having to send kernel patches via e-mails. Collaborating on software development is a social activity and stuff like convincing maintainers to trust you and your approach is just as important part of it (if not more important) as writing code. Yeah but FFS using email for patches when there are so much better ways of…

I personally don't think GitHub's PR model is superior to e-mail based patch management for two reasons. First, e-mail needs no additional middleware at git level to process (I can get my mails and directly start working on my machine), plus e-mail is at least one of Git's native patch management mechanisms.

This is not about spam, server management or GitLab/Gitea/whatever issue. This is catering to most diverse work methods, and removing bottlenecks and failure points from the pipeline. GitLab is down, everybody is blocked. Your mail provider is failing? It'll be up in 5 minutes tops, or your disk is full probably, go handle it yourself.

So Occam's razor outlaws all the complex explanations for mail based patch management. The answer is concise in my head:

> Mailing list is a great archive, it's infinitely simpler and way more robust than a single server, and keeps things neatly decentralized, and as designed.

This is a wind we can't control, I for one, am not looking and kernel devs and say "What a bunch of laggard luddites. They still use e-mail for patch management". On the contrary, I applaud them for making this run for this many years, this smoothly. Also, is it something different what I'm used to? Great! I'll learn something new. It's always good to learn something new.

Because, at the end of the day, all complex systems evolve from much simpler ones, over time. The opposite is impossible.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#268

Post by unethical_ban »

yencabulator wrote: post #228
unethical_ban wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's reasonable to read my original comment as an "accusation". I said "it sounds like" as part of a casual conversation about the subject. There was no hostility in my comment. Would you say that the Asahi team wasn't receptive to the pace at which the needed criteria were being developed? My point is that between these two groups there seems to be a misunderstanding of expectations. And being the upst…

The framework is "we will discuss it and a consensus may emerge". Linux is an open source project, not a company trying to remain profitable for the next quarter. If some outsider stumbles in and expects something else, well, they didn't understand what they were getting into.

Having structure to decision-making doesn't have anything to do with having a profit motive. Asahi nor myself as an outsider have brought up money.

It sounds like the implicit answer to "Does Linux want Asahi contributions" is "low priority". Which is fine if that's communicated.

I sense you have been involved in these discussions already and have a strong opinion about the specifics of this topic. I don't mean that in a bad way.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#269

Post by [deleted] »

Thaxll wrote: post #133
Octoth0rpe wrote: post #9

Well that's unfortunate. It seems like there's a balancing act between the benefits of writing drivers in Rust (easier, more maintainable), and getting those drivers mainlined (apparently soul-destroying, morale killing), I wonder if the Asahi team is considering simply abandoning linux in favor of something more rust friendly (redox being an obvious candidate, but maybe one of the BSDs?). Given the narrow set of har…

If you don't use Linux it will end up as a dead project, no one is going to use redox.

[deleted]

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#270

Post by mschuster91 »

ThatGuyRaion wrote: post #214
stirlo wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt him about the stalking problem (by online trolls, not necessarily IRL). He was a prominent voice in the trans supporter community and was regularly attacked by Kiwifarms.

Well, if anyone broke the law or harmed him he needs to go to law enforcement or the FBI. Outside of that, just get used to be thrown abuse of all kinds. If you get tagged by a group like that the more you talk about them the more you give them ammo.

The cops are fucking useless. I got death threats, bomb threats and a host of other shit and it's rare that the cops ever find the actor behind it. There is one particular "bulletproof" email hoster (the one with a bunch of very offensive and trolling domain names) that does absolutely zero cooperation with the police, and even if they did, it's likely that the other side uses Tor and the investigation ends there.

And if the other side is Kiwifarms and its associated offspring, the cops can't do anything at all. These guys are the utterly perfect storm - technically extremely competent but socially they're highly deranged narcissists.

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