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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#261

Post by arp242 »

wbl wrote: post #259
arp242 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

The DMA infrastructure is core to drivers. Saying no to having a wrapper to use it in rust means every rust driver needs to reimplement it, which creates more work and issues.

I am aware. Doesn't mean it's not an option, or even a bad idea. Or maybe there is a third option; I don't know.

By the way: I don't agree with Hellwig, insofar I can judge things, I'm just saying his opinion is valid, and that "Linus agreed on Rust, so therefore we can merge this patch" is not really a valid argument.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#262

Post by mort96 »

jen20 wrote: post #260
mort96 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not.

What?! Almost every major server and desktop Linux distribution ships a kernel full of patches, which are absolutely forks. That’s before we start getting into the crazy town of the embedded world. Clearly the software can be forked. The question is whether the community can - and that is yet to be seen.

All those "forks" are dependent on regularly rebasing their patch sets on top of mainline (or they never get updated and lose what semblance of support they had once the SoC they were made for reaches EoL), so they're pretty much irrelevant to this conversation. We have seen no indication that it's feasible for anyone to hard-fork the kernel and continue development in a way that's independent from what we today call "mainline".

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#263

Post by exe34 »

artyom wrote: post #238
sevg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be implying that he had nothing to apologise for, and that abusive behavior is an acceptable part of strong leadership. It’s sad that this even needs to be called out.

Except you have no authority to call that out, and we're not forced by law to agree with you. In my opinion Linus was never abusive or disrespectful - just blunt and direct. Unfortunately, there seems to exist people (like me) that would prefer such individuals instead of nice empty words just in case someone gets offended.

could you give some examples of "nice empty words"?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#264

Post by mort96 »

mu53 wrote: post #246
mort96 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say that C is "here to stay" in Linux? I would say so. I think you understood what was meant.

The drama is the problem, not rust. I don't know why, but either zealots choose rust or rust induces zealotry. Its exactly what Linus said.

I don't understand how this is related to what I said.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#265

Post by quelsolaar »

gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

The policy of "No C++, because I don't want to deal with C++ people", should be extended to the Rust community. Whatever you think of the merits of the Rust language, the drama, the lecturing and the general superiority complex of the Rust community is quite off putting, at least to C developers.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#266

Post by nialv7 »

jmull wrote: post #248
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

The drama, though, is due to personalities. A directive from Linus on the technical roadmap isn't going to solve anything. It could declare someone the "winner" in this particular thread or this particular issue, but lets the personality issue fester. It's probably best for Linux to work through its technical issues in boring email threads which never get any attention on social media. And its organizational issues a…

Coincidentally there is a very good talk related to this @ FOSDEM 2025 by James Bottomley: https://fosdem.org/2025/schedule/event/fosdem-2025-6540-the-...

Video isn't out yet, hopefully soon.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#267

Post by p_l »

pjmlp wrote: post #141
p_l wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux kernel is also one of the few that do not use C ABI as entry point for user programs at all. As for C compiler presence in POSIX, only existence of C-accessible APIs with specific structure are mandated, C compiler is optional just like Fortran runtime and compiler are.

Are you sure? https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/nframe.html https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799.2018edition... https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/015967575/toc.htm And copying this from UNIX 03, the most widespread certification, "A single configuration of the system shall meet all of the conformance requirements defined in the following mandatory Product Standards: Internationalized Sy…

Depends on exact level of conformance and options chosen:

From POSIX 2017 edition https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799.2018edition...

> On systems providing POSIX Conformance (see XBD Conformance), c99 is required only with the C-Language Development option; XSI-conformant systems always provide c99.

If XSI conformance is not asserted, only requirement is that C APIs and runtime libs for use by C programs exist on the system, and presence of C compiler is optional,

2017 POSIX had done away with including Fortran 77 in the same category as C, only providing an option for Fortran runtime libs but no longer specifying a Fortran development environment.

Also, I do not have relevant systems on hands to check, but as far as I know multiple Unix systems including behemoths like SunOS/Solaris shipped as POSIX compliant without C compiler.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#268

Post by alberth »

mplewis9z wrote: post #10

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

And Linus’ immediate reply

https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU...

(not taking either side, just interesting to read the reply)

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#269

Post by Tuna-Fish »

arp242 wrote: post #261
wbl wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DMA infrastructure is core to drivers. Saying no to having a wrapper to use it in rust means every rust driver needs to reimplement it, which creates more work and issues.

I am aware. Doesn't mean it's not an option, or even a bad idea. Or maybe there is a third option; I don't know. By the way: I don't agree with Hellwig, insofar I can judge things, I'm just saying his opinion is valid, and that "Linus agreed on Rust, so therefore we can merge this patch" is not really a valid argument.

It's just really, really dumb to both a) have rust drivers in the kernel and b) not merge this patch. It's just obviously stupid.

If you start with the assumption of a), there are no valid technical challenges to merging it. It's just better for everyone. Before Hellwig put his foot down as "not merging because rust sucks", he made a series of technical arguments against the patch, which were all transparently bullshit. It was those arguments that really raised such a furor, instead of all the other ways some C devs have disdained rust in the kernel in the past, because they were obviously made in bad faith. And when he was called out for them, he just went full "no rust in kernel".

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#270

Post by Yoric »

threatofrain wrote: post #144
nicce wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Martin has a habit of polarizing and aggregating discussions too much. It is not healthy at all. Linus is definitely correct, especially since he has the history of doing the same and he has tried to fix it. Imagine if the discussion would have started with an article like this. Patch probably would be merged already: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/1006805/f75d238e25728afe/

Very doubtful. The maintainer was clear and nothing in there is sufficient to address his criticism: polyglot is unmaintainable and Rust people should write a whole new OS as a separate effort.

Well, Fuschia has been largely ported to Rust, I believe, so... that's coming.
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