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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#251
post #238
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be implying that he had nothing to apologise for, and that abusive behavior is an acceptable part of strong leadership. It’s sad that this even needs to be called out.

Except you have no authority to call that out, and we're not forced by law to agree with you. In my opinion Linus was never abusive or disrespectful - just blunt and direct. Unfortunately, there seems to exist people (like me) that would prefer such individuals instead of nice empty words just in case someone gets offended.

Are you serious? Linus has a long history of being abusive, it is no secret. He has gotten better for sure in recent years, but especially in the earlier days he would fairly regularly insult people, tell them to kill themselves because it would make the world a better place, and more.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes It's easier to name the major Linux FOSS projects that DON'T have drama and virtue signaling than the ones with. If you read the Github comments on System-D, GNOME, etc, it's like watching children bickering on Sega VS Nintendo. Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws.

> Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws. It is rather anticlimactic. I had always imagined FOSS to be this free exchange of ideas, thoughtful consideration, and intentional action. Seeing what it has become though… Maybe closed source is better.

> "Maybe closed source is better."

I assure you it isn't; it really, really isn't. You don't see the drama because 1) it's behind closed doors and 2) because the people involved know their job is at risk if they cross the line.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#253
post #187
post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

[flagged]

I didn't downvote you, but I think you have a misunderstanding of a couple of things that are clouding your judgement: (1) the sheer size & inertia of the Linux kernel; there are tens of millions of lines of code, and even thinking about integrating another language will take time- lots of it; and (2) the distributed nature of its development and the diversity of its engineers; the community is not one that can be brought into an auditorium and made to change direction on a dime. Rust may have been around for 10 years, but no one was going to go all in on day one.

Further, this attitude of "Rust is clearly superior, so what's the holdup" is itself a holdup. You can't expect people to just spend their time learning a new language just because it's there, especially professionals with personal lives. These people do serious work, on a codebase that millions of people around the world, including virtually every tech company, relies on in some fashion. That's not a game. It's "serious business."

Serious business doesn't just chase something because it's new and hot and solves a certain class of problems (while simultaneously introducing its own set of problems).

Nothing is a panacea (yet, I suppose). This ship has been sailing for 30+ years. So many millions of man-hours have been put into it that people are justifiably cautious.

Now, all of that being said, I read the DMA maintainer's comments a few days ago and I thought he was being unreasonable, however, he is correct about the external dependency on his code. Even if the Rust DMA wrapper is kept completely separate, under a separate tree, he would still have to contend with the fact that any changes he makes might influence that wrapper and all the code that depends on it. So now, even if they claim to maintain the wrapper 100%, he is still beholden to all those downstream developers that rely on the Rust DMA wrapper's functionality, because if he breaks their code, he knows it'll cause a shitstorm. It's easy to say you'll maintain something 100% and the upstream guy doesn't have to worry, but time passes, things change, and all of a sudden, his hands get tied because it'll impact too many people. That's just reality.

Truth be told, I would eventually suspect some (or maybe many) Rust developers will migrate to a new project, because the rate of change is not going to be fast enough to ever satisfy them. And that's understandable. People want to make an impact, especially when contributing to an open source project (and doubly so on an unpaid basis).

Unfortunately I don't think Redox is the answer. UNIX and its clones/derivatives have had a long run, but anyone who wants to create the next big thing is not going to want just another clone of UNIX, even if it is in Rust.

We have seen the enemy. We understand the threat models and know far more about virtualization, containerization, sandboxing, etc., just by virtue of having had to dogfood these technologies for the last 25 years.

The next big thing (if there is one), will likely be something more like a cross between the Windows world (where ACLs rule the roost, and centralized management is built-in), UNIX with its CLI focus, process composition & command familiarity, and something like L4 which has unforgeable capabilities built in and a formally verified kernel.

Or we'll just go back to a modern day version of the UNIX wars, lol. Something, something about history rhyming.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#254
So I heard some rumors about US policy affecting Rust. That Rust formely got money from USAID, and also the thing about the US government should promote memory safety (or smth like that?) was removed.

Could that be relevant to this story, or is that a complete sidetrack?

Edit: Asking because the timing is curious.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#255

I don’t see why forking is not an option here. If the upstream maintainers don’t want to adopt it, the Rust folks can gradually rewrite the bits they want to and let the market decide. Use the Ballmer “embrace, extend, extinguish” model.

Linux is not a side project. It has thousands of developers being paid by chip and hardware manufacturers to ensure that linux works on their products.

With the complexity of systems engineering, for a single driver, it takes months to build one from scratch. Plus, there is not enough expertise within the rust community to take on a project like the linux kernel to match the rate of development by many large corporations with hobbyists.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#256
People do love their drama don't they 8-)

Regarding the point of "community" being difficult to manage in "open source" projects, I would argue managing a large group of developers on any project is difficult and full of drama.

I'm personally not an advocate of the "open source" obfuscation term myself, but the public license of the linux kernel has little to do with the drama.

Maybe the fact that linux developers have some kind of say at all, as opposed to some proprietary dev projects where every decision is handled by fiat (and Linus has certainly served this role at times), causes it to have more drama.

But no matter what model is followed, people do love their drama, and a large dev group is a social activity regardless of the licensing of the software itself.

Its like every social issue ever: the thing all participants have in common is that they are all humans...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#257

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

Besides the current drama, I'm glad someone of his stature agrees with and can call out the horrible processes and tooling involved in the kernel. Using email and a pile of hacks to mess around with patches just sounds nuts and makes it so much harder to understand or contribute. I don't think decentralized necessitates such a terrible workflow - you can run a local website with a distributed DB, distributed git forges exist, you can use federated chats instead of email, there has to be a better way than email.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#258

I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don't Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own? Sure it's going to take years, but at least they don't have to suffer the mental outrages from time to time and can do whatever they want? I mean I'd do it if that's what I want. P.S I don't have skin and skill for the kernel game. I'm just a curious bystander.

> I have a question. Instead of fighting an uphill war in the Linux kernel community, why don't Rush developers just make a new kernel or fork their own? Because their primary goal is to widen the community and reach of Rust, with "preventing memory error class bugs in the kernel" a secondary objective. After all, the Rust additions, if properly designed, can be maintained in an out-of-tree fork that tracks the main…

That sounds like a pretty dishonest interpretation of that effort.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#259
post #195
post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against…

The DMA infrastructure is core to drivers. Saying no to having a wrapper to use it in rust means every rust driver needs to reimplement it, which creates more work and issues.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#260
post #215
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how forkable is the whole thing? I mean, it is several decades of code but...

It's not.

What?! Almost every major server and desktop Linux distribution ships a kernel full of patches, which are absolutely forks. That’s before we start getting into the crazy town of the embedded world. Clearly the software can be forked. The question is whether the community can - and that is yet to be seen.
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