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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#241

Post by [deleted] »

lII1lIlI11ll wrote: post #207
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. Efficiently collaborating on large distributed open source projects like Linux is as much social act…

[deleted]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#242

Post by XorNot »

duxup wrote: post #38
chippiewill wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor His reprimand is a clear signal that he won't tolerate brigading. Marcan was making a pretty blatant attempt at using social pressure to influence decisions.

I'm not arguing that this is or isn't a problem but I think the statement "using social pressure to influence decisions" is so general that it could apply to just any discussion. That's kinda what discussion is. Granted there are acceptable methods within that, and not acceptable.

Throwing up a call to arms in unrelated discussion venues with the purpose of drawing people to the original venue, or to harass the original participants in other venues, would count though.

i.e. no one would consider it acceptable for me to go on reddit and start ranting about a Hacker News username, link the thread and argument, and imply either implicitly or explicitly that they should go and join the argument.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#243

Post by stusmall »

nicce wrote: post #90
harvey9 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this seems very inefficient and the opposite of what I assumed. repeated requests take up time on both sides and are not a very good measure of how important something is.

This is how the most of the open-source development works. There are many projects with thousands of issues and PRs. Those that will get most attention, typically gets prioritized.

This is even how closed source development works. If you throw issues in a backlog and never follow up to advocate for it then it will never get done.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#244

Post by doublerabbit »

devit wrote: post #187
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

[flagged]

Or dump linux and move to freebsd / haiku

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#246

Post by mu53 »

mort96 wrote: post #192
starspangled wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing in Linux is "here to stay", it always has to demonstrate its worth, and what it's worth is depends enirely on the technology and its developers, not Linus.

Would you say that C is "here to stay" in Linux? I would say so. I think you understood what was meant.

The drama is the problem, not rust. I don't know why, but either zealots choose rust or rust induces zealotry.

Its exactly what Linus said.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#248

Post by jmull »

gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

The drama, though, is due to personalities.

A directive from Linus on the technical roadmap isn't going to solve anything. It could declare someone the "winner" in this particular thread or this particular issue, but lets the personality issue fester.

It's probably best for Linux to work through its technical issues in boring email threads which never get any attention on social media. And its organizational issues and its personality issues, for that matter.

So it's probably good all around that Martin has bowed out. If you reach for the nuclear button whenever the people you're working with don't give you what you want, it's time to go work on your own (nothing wrong with that, BTW). It's not really a question of who's right, but whether people can find a way to work together. That's quite difficult in a big project, so you have to both really want it and be good at it or it's just not the place for you.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#249

Post by Vegenoid »

cataphract wrote: post #76
mplewis9z wrote: post #10

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

I'm tired of anaphoras. And he's not just abrasive He's a troublemaker. Seriously, code of conduct violation? It was perfectly clear what Hellwig meant by "cancer".

In my opinion, calling the well-intentioned hard work of others "cancer" is undeniably hyperbolic and dismissive. It is clear that Hellwig used it in this way. To interpret it differently requires bending the mind. Most people would also consider it rude, but I'll grant that rudeness is more subjective.

There is an argument that being hyperbolic, dismissive, and maybe a bit rude isn't as bad as some people make it out to be, and that it is a fine way to hash out disagreements and arrive at the best solution - that it is simply a result of the passion of exceptional engineers. There has historically been much of it in kernel development. But it seems that as the background and culture of kernel maintainers has broadened, that a more measured and positive approach to communication is more constructive.

It doesn't seem like marcan exemplifies this very well either. It is a loss for someone so skilled to abandon collaboration on the kernel, and seems like the unfortunate result of someone being dismissive and rude, and someone else taking that harder than is warranted or healthy.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#250

Post by mu53 »

devit wrote: post #187
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

[flagged]

I think you overestimate rust and misunderstand the problems. This is classic junior engineer "rewrite everything" thinking
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