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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#191

Post by ta8645 »

tedivm wrote: post #53
Longhanks wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This infighting is only going to hurt the kernel in the long run. Every time this "discussion" comes up, I walk away with the feeling that Linux kernel developers are unreasonably hostile and impossible to work with. It makes me wonder why new people would ever bother trying to contribute anything. Well, this is your take, as you explicitly wrote "I walk away with the feeling". My take is: The kernel developers are…

The kernel is doing fine today, but I don't think that's sustainable. The average age of the maintainers seems to be rising, and plenty of skilled people completely avoid kernel development explicitly because of the hostility and, frankly, assholish behavior that comes from the folks on these mailing lists. Eventually a lot of these people are going to age out, retire, or otherwise move on. I do think there will be a…

[flagged]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#192

Post by mort96 »

starspangled wrote: post #62
gary_0 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Positive, yes, but can you point to where he says R4L is here to stay and an integral part of the kernel? He needs to commit, or drama like this will continue to boil over. He also seems content to let the C-only old guard give the R4L guys a hard time. If you only enforce the rules on one side of a conflict, it makes it pretty clear which side you agree with.

Nothing in Linux is "here to stay", it always has to demonstrate its worth, and what it's worth is depends enirely on the technology and its developers, not Linus.

Would you say that C is "here to stay" in Linux? I would say so. I think you understood what was meant.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#193

Post by 999900000999 »

Have to side with the one language argument here.

It's hard enough to get a single programming language to work right. C is old and stable.

Rust is new and mostly stable, mostly stable isn't going to cut it when billions upon billions of devices depend on your work.

At the same time this type of ego driven drama keeps me out of the open source community. I have enough people telling me how to code during my 9-5.

I open source most of my projects, but it's not a collaboration. I'll even admit, I get really annoyed when someone puts in a PR that's literally just a bunch of spacing changes in a readme. I think there was some influencer who was claiming that you should go through GitHub, and submit as many changes for things like grammar as possible to a bunch of different projects .

And then on your resume you can put that you contribute it to all these projects. Not fun.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#194

Post by mort96 »

chippiewill wrote: post #31
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor His reprimand is a clear signal that he won't tolerate brigading. Marcan was making a pretty blatant attempt at using social pressure to influence decisions.

I honestly don't understand what the difference is between "brigading" and "complaining about a thing on mastodon". It's not uncommon to express frustration about something/someone associated with the kernel development process, what makes this particular instance "brigading"?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#195

Post by arp242 »

gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor

That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector's behaviour. Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville.

Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel, but which parts? How? Where? That's the big disagreement. Linus has always been fairly hands-off on these types of disagreements.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#196

Post by caycep »

tedivm wrote: post #53
Longhanks wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This infighting is only going to hurt the kernel in the long run. Every time this "discussion" comes up, I walk away with the feeling that Linux kernel developers are unreasonably hostile and impossible to work with. It makes me wonder why new people would ever bother trying to contribute anything. Well, this is your take, as you explicitly wrote "I walk away with the feeling". My take is: The kernel developers are…

The kernel is doing fine today, but I don't think that's sustainable. The average age of the maintainers seems to be rising, and plenty of skilled people completely avoid kernel development explicitly because of the hostility and, frankly, assholish behavior that comes from the folks on these mailing lists. Eventually a lot of these people are going to age out, retire, or otherwise move on. I do think there will be a…

how forkable is the whole thing? I mean, it is several decades of code but...

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#197

Post by Hackbraten »

tptacek wrote: post #118
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

I think at the point where you're loudly complaining about the email patch process (and hey, I agree it's the worst), this has stopped being about Rust.

May I ask which aspect of the email patch process you're referring to?

Arguably, I've used it only once to contribute a kernel bugfix, and I was lucky enough that my patch got accepted as is. So I found the process pretty straightforward.

But even with iterations and revisions factored in, kernel work itself feels orders of magnitude more complex and cumbersome to me than a patch process based on a mailing list could ever be?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#198

Post by [deleted] »

pjmlp wrote: post #141
p_l wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux kernel is also one of the few that do not use C ABI as entry point for user programs at all. As for C compiler presence in POSIX, only existence of C-accessible APIs with specific structure are mandated, C compiler is optional just like Fortran runtime and compiler are.

Are you sure? https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9799919799/nframe.html https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799.2018edition... https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/015967575/toc.htm And copying this from UNIX 03, the most widespread certification, "A single configuration of the system shall meet all of the conformance requirements defined in the following mandatory Product Standards: Internationalized Sy…

[deleted]

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#199

Post by remram »

999900000999 wrote: post #193

Have to side with the one language argument here. It's hard enough to get a single programming language to work right. C is old and stable. Rust is new and mostly stable, mostly stable isn't going to cut it when billions upon billions of devices depend on your work. At the same time this type of ego driven drama keeps me out of the open source community. I have enough people telling me how to code during my 9-5. I op…

Everybody hates spam and abuse, I don't think it supports your claim that much. This is definitely not what anybody thinks of as "collaboration".

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#200

Post by iczero »

steveklabnik wrote: post #173
Longhanks wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, one side just quit. And that particular side was told by Linus Torvalds himself that his way of Social Media brigading is inappropriate for kernel development, and that the current process works. I choose to believe Linus. His work on and guidance of the kernel used to and still does work pretty great.

The person who quit was not the author of the patch, or a member of Rust for Linux.

The person who quit wrote the Linux graphics driver for Apple M-series GPUs in Rust.

edit: I may have gotten some things confused, please see below

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