Earlier quoted context omitted.
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so how should it be called, in good faith?
I personally have no idea, because I don't even know what's the good faith meaning of this phrase.
Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
231–240 of 1001 posts
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#232From what I can piece together it seems Hector is upset about someone ("Hellwig"?) doing something that was seen as intentionally sabotaging the rust efforts. Hector posted about it on socials. Linus came down on Hector for leveraging socials to fight kernel disputes. Hector quits. No doubt that is a flawed summary so feel free to correct
I saw the social media post, and it didn’t even register as “trying to start a brigade” IMO.
I read it as “look at this shit” and general frustration with the likes of DMA-guys behaviour.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
> an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds Exactly the point. IMHO the one and only thing that made Linux successful as a project is Linus' strong leadership - which has been criticized ad-nauseam over the years; yet it's the only thing that yields results. So in the specific instances (like this one) where he's not decisively, unequivocally, and even harshly saying "yes" or "no" to something, the community sho…
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You seem to be implying that he had nothing to apologise for, and that abusive behavior is an acceptable part of strong leadership.
It’s sad that this even needs to be called out.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
>but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes It's easier to name the major Linux FOSS projects that DON'T have drama and virtue signaling than the ones with. If you read the Github comments on System-D, GNOME, etc, it's like watching children bickering on Sega VS Nintendo. Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws.
> Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws. It is rather anticlimactic. I had always imagined FOSS to be this free exchange of ideas, thoughtful consideration, and intentional action. Seeing what it has become though… Maybe closed source is better.
> Seeing what it has become though… Maybe closed source is better.
You thought it was better in the past? Read up on the great ncurses maintainer drama. Or the NetBSD/OpenBSD split. Or FreeBSD/DragonflyBSD split. Or the Emacs forks, GNU libc forks, GCC fork, etc. etc. etc.
This kind of drama has always existed. Difficult people have always existed. And even good people have always been struggling with their emotions.
And in all my closed-source $dayjobs I've had to deal with all of that too. Sometimes significantly worse than I'm seeing here.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
> an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds Exactly the point. IMHO the one and only thing that made Linux successful as a project is Linus' strong leadership - which has been criticized ad-nauseam over the years; yet it's the only thing that yields results. So in the specific instances (like this one) where he's not decisively, unequivocally, and even harshly saying "yes" or "no" to something, the community sho…
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Yep, that happened. "Forced to apologize" essentially describes it.
A quick sweep through recent messages in LKML shows that there's a healthy return to form for him, maybe with less curse words, but as succinct and impactful as it should be nonetheless.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#236Likewise most Rust efforts going on from Microsoft and Google are on downstream, Android, Sphere OS,... This was to be expected, many of their anti-C++ complaints also apply to Rust, given that both languages share many common ideas, even if presented in different forms.
> This was to be expected, many of their anti-C++ complaints also apply to Rust, given that both languages share many common ideas, even if presented in different forms.
I was genuinely surprised when Linus opened the door for Rust in the Kernel for that reason. And the real waste is there: had Linux said a straight “no”, then nobody would have lost their time trying to make this work against all odds.
Or maybe Linus really thinks Rust is the future, but he doesn't want to enforce its inclusion in the Kernel against his senior maintainers because he's afraid of an uprising.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
> an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds Exactly the point. IMHO the one and only thing that made Linux successful as a project is Linus' strong leadership - which has been criticized ad-nauseam over the years; yet it's the only thing that yields results. So in the specific instances (like this one) where he's not decisively, unequivocally, and even harshly saying "yes" or "no" to something, the community sho…
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Some of Linus's past messages came across as needlessly aggressive and insulting. There really was no practical reason for that and just served to alienate contributors, and it came across as unprofessional.
You can be a strong, opinionated leader and still be kind (or at least neutral) to the people you're working with.
A good leader is someone who can deliver hard messages while still keeping your team inspired. It doesn't do any good if the people working under you feel like trash.
It's the difference between telling a contributor "you're an f**ing idiot" vs "this code isn't up to standards, try again". Same message, but completely different impact on your team.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
[flagged]
You seem to be implying that he had nothing to apologise for, and that abusive behavior is an acceptable part of strong leadership. It’s sad that this even needs to be called out.
Except you have no authority to call that out, and we're not forced by law to agree with you.
In my opinion Linus was never abusive or disrespectful - just blunt and direct.
Unfortunately, there seems to exist people (like me) that would prefer such individuals instead of nice empty words just in case someone gets offended.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
> an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds Exactly the point. IMHO the one and only thing that made Linux successful as a project is Linus' strong leadership - which has been criticized ad-nauseam over the years; yet it's the only thing that yields results. So in the specific instances (like this one) where he's not decisively, unequivocally, and even harshly saying "yes" or "no" to something, the community sho…
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Bad faith arguments like this don't really belong on HN. Please represent the substance of your argument accurately rather than debating this inaccurate strawman argument.
Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm tired of anaphoras. And he's not just abrasive He's a troublemaker. Seriously, code of conduct violation? It was perfectly clear what Hellwig meant by "cancer".
What is the interpretation of "cancer" in this context that isn't rude, offensive, or hostile to the R4L project?
He meant to say "the Rust code will spread everywhere [like cancer]".
I agree it's rude, offensive, and hostile, but there are degrees of things and context matters. "You are cancer" would be much worse. I feel we should try and interpret things in good faith and maintain some perspective. For a single word like this: you can just read over it (which is also what the other Rust people did).
Certainly outright removing Hellwig from the Linux project, as Marcan suggested, is bizarrely draconian.
As I argued a few days ago: part of "being nice" is accepting that people aren't perfect and dealing with that – https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42940591