61–70 of 1001 posts
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> Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws. It is rather anticlimactic. I had always imagined FOSS to be this free exchange of ideas, thoughtful consideration, and intentional action. Seeing what it has become though… Maybe closed source is better.
I hate to mention this but closed source appears to involve humans too. I was disappointed when I discovered this as well.
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>Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor You're reading way too far into this. Linus has been publicly positive about the R4L project plenty of times.
Positive, yes, but can you point to where he says R4L is here to stay and an integral part of the kernel? He needs to commit, or drama like this will continue to boil over. He also seems content to let the C-only old guard give the R4L guys a hard time. If you only enforce the rules on one side of a conflict, it makes it pretty clear which side you agree with.
Quoting from this thread https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z6OzgBYZNJPr_ZD1@phen... > Simona Vetter: (addressing Hector) ...Now I'm left with the unlikely explanation that you just like thundering in as the cavalry, fashionably late, maximally destructive, because it entertains the masses on fedi or reddit or wherever. I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here, I really don't get it, but I am for sure fe…
https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2b9b75d1-eb8e-494a-b0...
Quoting
> Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic, [...]
unironically, immediately after saying @marcan
> and if that then causes you to ragequit, because you can't actually deal with the heat you've been dishing out coming back around the corner: fuck off
...is quite tonedeaf at the very least. Especially given what Marcan said about dealing with this not being his paid job.
Nobody comes off looking good here.
How about you accept the fact that maybe the problem is you.
You think you know better. But the current process works.
It has problems, but problems are a fact of life. There is no perfect.
However, I will say that the social media brigading just makes me not
want to have anything at all to do with your approach.
Because if we have issues in the kernel development model, then social
media sure as hell isn't the solution. The same way it sure as hell
wasn't the solution to politics.
Technical patches and discussions matter. Social media brigading - no
than\k you.Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…
It's not Wikipedia, right? Getting the maximum number of contributors isn't a stated goal? I'm a C programmer with a fair bit of kernel experience, and they don't want me, I'm pretty sure, and I'm completely fine with that.
Martin has worked hard on Asahi, but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes. I'd give this to Linus.
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Is your theory that rust makes people dramatic? Or that dramatic people like rust? What other options are there, if not coincidence?
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> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor His reprimand is a clear signal that he won't tolerate brigading. Marcan was making a pretty blatant attempt at using social pressure to influence decisions.
I'm not arguing that this is or isn't a problem but I think the statement "using social pressure to influence decisions" is so general that it could apply to just any discussion. That's kinda what discussion is. Granted there are acceptable methods within that, and not acceptable.
Imagine if the discussion would have started with an article like this. Patch probably would be merged already:
Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…
I cannot claim to have felt the effects on the maintainer-side of this workflow in large-scale projects though.
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>and virtue signalling I'm not disagreeing as I don't know what exact things you're talking about, but I find "virtue signalling" and "communication" to be very similar terms these days. From statement to statement I'm not sure what anyone means by that phrase anymore.
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But generally I do like to wait to understand specifically what someone means before assuming.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor His reprimand is a clear signal that he won't tolerate brigading. Marcan was making a pretty blatant attempt at using social pressure to influence decisions.
I'm not arguing that this is or isn't a problem but I think the statement "using social pressure to influence decisions" is so general that it could apply to just any discussion. That's kinda what discussion is. Granted there are acceptable methods within that, and not acceptable.
Not really. It's one thing to discuss these things directly in the proper channels, namely the mailing list, but it's another thing entirely to make childish, passive-aggressive posts on not-Twitter about how anyone who disagrees with your actions is trying to "sabotage the project" and trying to rally your followers to cancel them on the grounds of "Code of Conduct violations" (once again proving that "Codes of Conduct" are little more than tools to enable cancel culture).
He himself acknowledged the fact that what he did was childish and embarrassing by deleting his entire Mastodon account.