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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#41

Post by chippiewill »

Havoc wrote: post #12

From what I can piece together it seems Hector is upset about someone ("Hellwig"?) doing something that was seen as intentionally sabotaging the rust efforts. Hector posted about it on socials. Linus came down on Hector for leveraging socials to fight kernel disputes. Hector quits. No doubt that is a flawed summary so feel free to correct

No that's 100% accurate.

Marcan is probably a little acutely upset not just because he was told off, but also because Linus hasn't waded into the actual issue at hand (which he needs to, not even Greg K-h can answer it). But that issue is less urgent and it's probably reasonable for Linus to:

a) Mull it over before making a rash decision b) let tempers calm.

I would guess Linus will wait til Monday and is probably also having some off-list chats anyway.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#42

Post by duxup »

coldtea wrote: post #3

Martin has worked hard on Asahi, but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes. I'd give this to Linus.

>and virtue signalling

I'm not disagreeing as I don't know what exact things you're talking about, but I find "virtue signalling" and "communication" to be very similar terms these days. From statement to statement I'm not sure what anyone means by that phrase anymore.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#43

Post by nialv7 »

Quoting from this thread https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z6OzgBYZNJPr_ZD1@phen...

> Simona Vetter: (addressing Hector) ...Now I'm left with the unlikely explanation that you just like thundering in as the cavalry, fashionably late, maximally destructive, because it entertains the masses on fedi or reddit or wherever. I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here, I really don't get it, but I am for sure fed up dealing with the fallout.

> Dave Airlie: To back up Sima here, we don't need grandstanding, brigading, playing to the crowd, streamer drama creation or any of that in discussions around this. The r4l team and drm maintainer team have this sort of thing in hand, it's not like we don't understand the community of the Linux kernel, and having this first reaction to blow shit up and dramatise it just isn't helpful.

(Obviously I am taking things a bit out of context here, I recommend giving this thread a read.)

Seems to be pretty level-headed, on point, and damning. So yeah, I don't know if I am on marcan's side this time.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#44

Post by duxup »

randmeerkat wrote: post #34
Cumpiler69 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but comes of as looking for drama and virtue signalling oftentimes It's easier to name the major Linux FOSS projects that DON'T have drama and virtue signaling than the ones with. If you read the Github comments on System-D, GNOME, etc, it's like watching children bickering on Sega VS Nintendo. Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws.

> Turns out FOSS devs are humas just like everybody else and suffer from the same flaws. It is rather anticlimactic. I had always imagined FOSS to be this free exchange of ideas, thoughtful consideration, and intentional action. Seeing what it has become though… Maybe closed source is better.

I hate to mention this but closed source appears to involve humans too. I was disappointed when I discovered this as well.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#45

Post by gauge_field »

dralley wrote: post #33
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

>Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor You're reading way too far into this. Linus has been publicly positive about the R4L project plenty of times.

Agree with that. His statements are available on youtube. I was suprised how positive and eager to the change he was.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#46

Post by lloeki »

Havoc wrote: post #12

From what I can piece together it seems Hector is upset about someone ("Hellwig"?) doing something that was seen as intentionally sabotaging the rust efforts. Hector posted about it on socials. Linus came down on Hector for leveraging socials to fight kernel disputes. Hector quits. No doubt that is a flawed summary so feel free to correct

I suppose this is what you're looking for:

https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250110083955.GA5395...

https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250128092334.GA2854...

https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/Z5qeoqRZKjiR1YAD@poll...

https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250204052916.GA2874...

https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250131135421.GO5556...

Note: I did not intend to particularly link to Christoph Hellwig comments, it just so happens that these contain enough quoting form previous answers to trace out something coherent.

For the complete context, you should walk up/down (and laterally) the thread to get more details and make your own opinion of it. It doesn't take very long.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#47

Post by chippiewill »

rcxdude wrote: post #39
Dalewyn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've conversed with marcan a few times (on completely unrelated and inconsequential things). As far as I know he's a decent man. That said, I'm going to agree with Linus there: Cancel culture ("social media brigading") isn't the solution.

Indeed, but where is the 'real' solution? If no-one higher up is going to step in and merge the patches despite the blocking maintainer, how is "the process" going to move R4L forward? (Edit: Ok, reading some other context, it seems like this is indeed what's happening, which does make this reaction a little less justified. I can certainly see why it's no fun to have people in the project saying they will do whatever…

They can merge regardless. The maintainer nacked something they don't even own, they were asked for a review as a courtesy as it wraps their subsystem.

That said there's an outstanding question about whether Linus would accept something that breaks Rust builds for merge. Linus hasn't commented on this yet, but I'm sure he will.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#48

Post by gary_0 »

dralley wrote: post #33
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

>Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor You're reading way too far into this. Linus has been publicly positive about the R4L project plenty of times.

Positive, yes, but can you point to where he says R4L is here to stay and an integral part of the kernel? He needs to commit, or drama like this will continue to boil over. He also seems content to let the C-only old guard give the R4L guys a hard time. If you only enforce the rules on one side of a conflict, it makes it pretty clear which side you agree with.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#49

Post by ndiddy »

nialv7 wrote: post #24
mplewis9z wrote: post #10

Marcan certainly can be abrasive (I mean lol, so can Linus), but all the things he points out in the message below are 100% valid - I highly recommend for anyone here to try to contribute something even very small and logical to the Linux kernel or git (which use similar processes), it’s an eye-opening experience that’s incredibly unapproachable, frustrating, and demoralizing. https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/2…

Looks like @marcan deleted his existence on mastodon? Does anyone have a copy of what he said on there?

The tweet he got called out for on the thread was

"Thinking of literally starting a Linux maintainer hall of shame. Not for public consumption, but to help new kernel contributors know what to expect.

Every experienced kernel submitter has this in their head, maybe it should be finally written down."

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