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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#301

Post by e12e »

dividedbyzero wrote: post #136
candiodari wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it's reasonable ... because of course all these browsers don't have a security model and just allow web apps to do whatever they want. This is essentially saying no-one can build a secure browser.

I don't think they're saying that. I read their statement more like "someone might build an insecure browser", which isn't that invalid a concern I think. I'd like Apple to be a bit more daring and just open up those APIs too, but I kind of get their incentives point the other way. Apart from some landmark design decisions, Apple is an extremely conservative company, and stalling on an issue like this is just what su…

But they already give the "insecure browser" access to display web pages, access the camera etc. They just don't want "runs best on chrome" pwas eating they're app store cake.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#302

Post by crossroadsguy »

dbtc wrote: post #182
niutech wrote: post #169

Bad move from Apple. It's time to boycott iOS and move to FOSS alternatives, such as: AOSP, Ubuntu Touch, GNOME Mobile, KDE Plasma, Sailfish OS. Personally I am using both UBports and Sailfish OS and I appreciate the privacy they provide. As a possible workaround to fullscreen PWAs in iOS in the EU, I propose a convention to append some hash to the Web App Manifest start_url, e.g. #__pwa__, then set the default iOS w…

What's a good device to replace my iphone 13 mini?

I have looked. If you look for a clean experience and not an OS that tracks your every breath and every shake, none. Absolutely none.

If you care about a sanely sized phone and not a phablet, then double absolutely none — as in there’s no option in Apple’s stable either. Been using my 14 for some 9 months after 12 mini and every time I look at this monstrosity I regret moving to iPhones because I kinda knew they’d stoop down to be like Androids eventually.

Anyway, so no option really. Again, I have looked.

Did you mean to replace 13 mini without any such criteria I have mentioned above? Well, then go to any phone listing site or Amazon and filter Android devices based on cost and features and just buy the one that fits the bill. Because you didn’t say anything else.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#303

Post by darylteo »

thimp wrote: post #146
benguild wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for P…

Are you sure this isn't a tech industry viewpoint? I don't know anyone who knows what the difference between an app and a PWA is. I don't think I've seen anyone outside of the tech industry with a PWA active. In context 99% of the users I meet don't even know what USB-C is.

Going on a slight tangent: I do get many clients inquiring about PWA because "they don't need to pay 30% per purchase". This is anecdotal, of course... they wouldn't be able to tell you what it is, but all they care about is that they save 30%. So there is definitely "interest" in PWAs.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#304

Post by SllX »

ambigious7777 wrote: post #283
SllX wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned this in another comment but they built out over 600 APIs and a system of accompanying entitlements to comply with the DMA, they’re clearly not at this point just for PWAs going to throw up their hands and a scare sheet and say “good enough for government work, devs: do what you want now”. EU iPhone customers are still iPhone customers. The security and privacy considerations don’t go away just because a n…

Obviously, those considerations must be considered. However, as I said, adding a simple confirmation prompt would be plenty enough. I think what is happening here, is that Apple is going like, "I don't get my market control, you don't get your shiny new features." Other phone platforms allow you to do things, that may be unsafe or insecure, but still plenty useful. Also, running a PWA really isn't that unsecure/unpri…

> However, as I said, adding a simple confirmation prompt would be plenty enough.

That would be enough for you. That is apparently not enough for Apple, and you can tell that isn’t enough for Apple by their actions because despite the fact that there were less expensive and time consuming ways they could have complied with the whole rest of the DMA, the only feature regression they’ve had is PWA support in the iPhone version of Safari.

> By your logic that PWAs are unsecure

That is not what I said. Here’s what I actually said not that long ago:

> Apple can make security guarantees about their own rendering engine that they can’t for any other rendering engine.

> It’s not about what PWAs are like in Safari, it’s about what they’re like in third-party browsers that have to by law be allowed to do whatever Safari can do with their own fully enabled rendering engines.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#305

Post by sreejithr »

johanneskanybal wrote: post #25

As a European dev I want apple to fail super hard and implode. They used to be so cool and make slick hardware for their nische but now I'm happy to use worse hardware as long as they disapear from the face of the earth.

Stop this bureaucracy in the EU and build something for a change. Shipping for EU is stupid hard. And you guys are declining in economy. Pretty soon, there won't be any economic arguments to continue doing business in EU with all the cost of this bureaucracy involved.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#306

Post by ambigious7777 »

SllX wrote: post #304
ambigious7777 wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously, those considerations must be considered. However, as I said, adding a simple confirmation prompt would be plenty enough. I think what is happening here, is that Apple is going like, "I don't get my market control, you don't get your shiny new features." Other phone platforms allow you to do things, that may be unsafe or insecure, but still plenty useful. Also, running a PWA really isn't that unsecure/unpri…

> However, as I said, adding a simple confirmation prompt would be plenty enough. That would be enough for you. That is apparently not enough for Apple, and you can tell that isn’t enough for Apple by their actions because despite the fact that there were less expensive and time consuming ways they could have complied with the whole rest of the DMA, the only feature regression they’ve had is PWA support in the iPhone…

Yes, so rather than allowing other browsers to have PWAs with a warning, they instead don't allow anyone to do it.

Allowing so may be insecure, but at least provide a way.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#307

Post by leifross »

Symbiote wrote: post #259
leifross wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel you, I am the sole developer of https://ember.ly Certainly feels great to have your livelyhood kicked to the curb by some rich american megacorporation throwing a tantrum. The worst part is that probably 40 percent of the development time has been trying to wrangle my way around weird rendering quirks in safari, never again. My next site will have a banner suggesting safari users open the site in firefox..

As a Norwegian / Norwegian company, is there even any politician you can write to?

Norway as an independent actor is too small to carry any weight in this matter. Our best bet is to hedge our interest as an extended member of the European Union, and even there we have a limited say.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#308

Post by [deleted] »

jkestner wrote: post #52
akmarinov wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever they manage to eek out in the EU, is the future of what iOS will be in the US and worldwide eventually. If they go with fully fledged PWAs that the other browser engines will enable - there’s little reason to use the Appstore, hence Apple losing their 30% commission. From their perspective it’s not so much throwing a tantrum but clawing and screaming their way into giving up as little revenue as possible.

And as a developer, I see how I'm going to be collateral damage, and am less likely to do anything that gives Apple more power over me and my customers. If that means a bookmarked web app, so be it.

[deleted]

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#309

Post by dilippkumar »

There have been several comments along the lines of: "Why should I trust apple and their security, but not that of a third-party web browser?"

I don't have an answer for you. But I want to recommend this talk from 7 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGFriOKz6U

That alone convinced me. Apple knows what it is doing when it comes to device security. Today, I trust them with my most sensitive data and sleep peacefully at night.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#310

Post by stephenr »

benguild wrote: post #101
LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

The “low usage” comment is going to be more ammo against Apple unfortunately. The whole reason they are low usage on PWAs is because of a lack of investment from Apple and a lack of parity, yet for the longest time Apple has played both sides by saying PWAs are a viable alternative to the App Store, all while channeling people to App Store for actual app downloads and not providing similar marketing or anything for P…

> not providing similar marketing or anything for PWAs

It's functionality to add an arbitrary webpage. What exactly are you expecting them to "provide"?

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