Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#131

Post by masto » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:18 PM UTC

cqqxo4zV46cp wrote: post #95

luuurker wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this?

Please drop the tribalistic vitriol and be an adult about this. The statement is “or they could not”. It’s factual. It’s what Apple did. It’s not a religious stance.

The question was "What's the benefit for you as a user to side with Apple on things like this?". There's no vitriol there. Jumping to the defense of a trillion dollar corporation seems religious or at least tribalistic to me.

And lest I be dismissed as a hater, I currently own five Apple computers, an iPhone I've upgraded every year since they came out, an iPad, a watch, and a virtu^wspatial computing heads^wdevice. But that's because of the transactional value they provide, not because I believe Apple loves me and has my best interests at heart. They love my money and that's where it ends.

I use several PWAs and I will be very disappointed if this is the stick Apple uses to close the window on this short period of time where we had a reasonably interoperable standard for making "apps" using web technologies. I can run Elk in a browser, but it's suboptimal.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#132

Post by Zagitta » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:19 PM UTC

addicted wrote: post #5

I don’t think Apple’s pettiness is gonna work in their favor. I am not in the EU but my next iPhone is almost certainly not gonna be an iPhone despite me having used a non iPhone for about 6 months in the last 15 years. Their throwing their customers under the bus just to throw a tantrum in the EU does not bode well for how they would treat their customers in other situations.

I hope EU comes down HARD on them for trying to pull this shit

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#133

Post by torartc » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:19 PM UTC

Is there anything we can actually do to push back on this? I get we can long term just not buy their products, but it feels like there needs to be more urgent action then that.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#134

Post by lambdas » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:20 PM UTC

agust wrote: post #38

LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

[flagged]

That’s ridiculous. It’s the antithesis of RTFA; you have to read an argument for yourself else you’re just parroting the opinions of others.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#135

Post by anon84873628 » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:20 PM UTC

circuit10 wrote: post #98

thimp wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an end user who has been fucked over by the other side (MS/Google/crappy app vendors), I am behind their decision. If I was not I can choose to leave. I know this is a divisive comment. Please see my further extrapolation in a child comment.

How does removing web apps help anything? To me it seems like part of a ploy to create backlash against this law by removing features

I know it is not en vogue to be charitable towards tech companies, but it seems fair to assume that some teams are making a good faith effort to follow the law, and may be forced to accept imperfect design tradeoffs. Like they say, it affects a relatively small number of users, there is a sufficient workaround, and the technical fix would require major investment.

Not everything is a conspiracy.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#136

Post by dividedbyzero » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:21 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #43

crazygringo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for posting that. I'm no iOS expert but it actually sounds like a pretty reasonable explanation. It's at least good to hear Apple's side here, and more knowledgeable commenters here can weigh in as to whether it really does seem genuine.

Sure it's reasonable ... because of course all these browsers don't have a security model and just allow web apps to do whatever they want. This is essentially saying no-one can build a secure browser.

I don't think they're saying that. I read their statement more like "someone might build an insecure browser", which isn't that invalid a concern I think. I'd like Apple to be a bit more daring and just open up those APIs too, but I kind of get their incentives point the other way. Apart from some landmark design decisions, Apple is an extremely conservative company, and stalling on an issue like this is just what such an org would do.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#137

Post by rimunroe » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:21 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #84

rimunroe wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain why?

naive people accept at face value PR speak. unwilling to look past that and look for other ulterior motives even less charitable ones would pretty much be textbook naivety to me.

I didn’t ask because I think someone should take a company’s word at face value.

I asked because the thing this company said in this particular instance aligned with what I’d heard from other (independent) parties and I wanted to know why this person seemed so sure about that being wrong.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#138

Post by jeroenhd » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:21 PM UTC

TheGlav wrote: post #80

jensensbutton wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like an OS problem. They should fix that.

Of course they could. They looked at the cost of rewriting the entire integration and framework for running PWAs and said, "eh, nah."

They'll have to allow some kind of app installation API to allow for alternative app stores. If Google implements some kind of WebAPK technology on iOS, they may just be able to launch a Google Play for iOS to work around these PWAs as a workaround, and Safari will be down a feature.

I have the feeling Apple is betting on Google not caring enough about the PWA platform to try to compete. Maybe they're right, but if they're not, they're only making the browser wars worse for themselves.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#139

Post by sigmar » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:22 PM UTC

npunt wrote: post #124

sigmar wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heard. But we're going to entirely eliminate all PWAs because there might be an additional prompt added? Seems excessive/specious to me.

It's not one additional prompt, it's a class of prompts that could be exploited over and over again. A single site could trigger hundreds by sites popping up in the background each which trigger it, and then the user's home screen is full of fake PWAs with names like 'save money' 'in debt?' 'casino cash bucks' etc. Next you're developing mitigations, spam cleanup, etc. We've gone through this kind of thing before.

The user would get rid of the app/browser that is doing this, no? The same way they would have to for any malicious app that persistently requests a special permission?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#140

Post by thimp » Thu, Feb 15, 2024, 10:22 PM UTC

summerlight wrote: post #65

zer00eyz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious... camera, microphone or location ... Browsers ... 30 some million lines of code in chromium browsers. Thats bigger than the linux kernel. The HN crowed might not LIKE apples response but they have a very defensible position. Edit: Its not like we haven't seen this play out on the desktop recently: https://www.theverge.com/24054329/microsoft-edge-automatic-c..…

Why should we trust Apple for security in that context? Apple also provides all those functionalities via their proprietary API, which is not even audit-able. If Apple really believes in that argument, they should disable their own API as well.

We don't entirely trust Apple. We just trust them more than other vendors.