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Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

techcrunch.com

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Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#181

Post by pb7 »

jeroenhd wrote: post #155
pb7 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most users are stupid though. Reminder that a US congressman once grilled Google's CEO about whether Google was tracking his iPhone's precise location. And this one was smart enough to con his way into Congress. "I have an iPhone, and if I move from here and go over there and sit with my Democrat friends, which would make them real nervous, does Google track my movement?" -- Ted Poe https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/g…

> "I have an iPhone, and if I move from here and go over there and sit with my Democrat friends, which would make them real nervous, does Google track my movement?" -- Ted Poe The thing is, if this was a real life situation, and he would seek out and politically collaborate with/stalk and listen in on his Democrat friends, there's a good chance Google would know. Not because of a digital AirTag Google installed on hi…

The point was that he has no idea where the boundaries around between Apple and Google and what is within the realm of possibility of abuse and what is strictly impossible without him tapping "accept" via a system prompt. It is not possible for Google to track his location without him granting permission to do so on his iPhone. It is not possible to get precise location data without a prompt and a blue system indicator. It is not possible to get repeated location data without iOS eventually notifying you of the background activity (even the stock Weather app is not immune to this). All of this is because Apple has fine control over the system.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#182

Post by dbtc »

niutech wrote: post #169

Bad move from Apple. It's time to boycott iOS and move to FOSS alternatives, such as: AOSP, Ubuntu Touch, GNOME Mobile, KDE Plasma, Sailfish OS. Personally I am using both UBports and Sailfish OS and I appreciate the privacy they provide. As a possible workaround to fullscreen PWAs in iOS in the EU, I propose a convention to append some hash to the Web App Manifest start_url, e.g. #__pwa__, then set the default iOS w…

What's a good device to replace my iphone 13 mini?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#183

Post by anon373839 »

zer00eyz wrote: post #22
LeoPanthera wrote: post #7

Since the article doesn't actually repeat what Apple has said, here's what Apple says: == Begin quote == The iOS system has traditionally provided support for Home Screen web apps by building directly on WebKit and its security architecture. That integration means Home Screen web apps are managed to align with the security and privacy model for native apps on iOS, including isolation of storage and enforcement of sys…

Without this type of isolation and enforcement, malicious... camera, microphone or location ... Browsers ... 30 some million lines of code in chromium browsers. Thats bigger than the linux kernel. The HN crowed might not LIKE apples response but they have a very defensible position. Edit: Its not like we haven't seen this play out on the desktop recently: https://www.theverge.com/24054329/microsoft-edge-automatic-c..…

> The HN crowed might not LIKE apples response but they have a very defensible position.

You and Apple both are ignoring the fact that these permission APIs exist even if the website isn’t being displayed in standalone/full screen mode. The modern web is built on them, and third-party browser engines WILL provide access to these APIs in Europe.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#184

Post by rickdeckard »

thimp wrote: post #140
summerlight wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we trust Apple for security in that context? Apple also provides all those functionalities via their proprietary API, which is not even audit-able. If Apple really believes in that argument, they should disable their own API as well.

We don't entirely trust Apple. We just trust them more than other vendors.

Who is "we"?

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#185

Post by w4 »

I’m primed to be upset with Apple these days, but this doesn’t seem like an unreasonable position. The EU is forcing them to do a bunch of work to support alternate browser engines, this in turn creates a bunch of additional work if Apple wants to fully support PWAs, and PWAs aren’t really in Apple’s financial interest to begin with, so f-it. They're not going to spend resources to add support for PWAs in the EU. It's easier to just disable them and call it a day.

It's a rational choice. Apple isn’t a charity, so why would they spend resources on extra work that they didn’t want to do in the first place, given that work is not required for legal compliance. The security spin is clearly nonsense, but other than that I can't really fault Apple for their position on this, even if I wish it were different.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#186

Post by chongli »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #172
chongli wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you’re a commenter on HN I’m going to assume you’re a tech person. I’m not talking about tech people, who through their discussions try to find the correct person/company to blame for issues. I’m talking about the general public. If a story about a data breach in a 3rd party app — affecting iOS users — hits the news cycle, Apple will take the blame and their brand reputation and sales will be impacted. It doesn…

I don't see how this matters to the GP's argument. Windows was a virus hotbed for decades and that does not appear to have affected its reputation in a meaningful way.

That’s because Windows’ reputation was already mud. Microsoft made their business on corporate users anyway. Apple is a consumer brand. A data breach on iOS is like nudity in a Disney movie: utterly brand-destroying.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#187

Post by shuckles »

weberer wrote: post #126
candiodari wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it's reasonable ... because of course all these browsers don't have a security model and just allow web apps to do whatever they want. This is essentially saying no-one can build a secure browser.

I know at least Firefox has per-site permissions for location, webcam, and microphone access. Is it a correct interpretation that Safari on iOS does not have this feature?

Their argument was they want the system (iOS) to enforce those permissions, not browsers on behalf of apps they've added.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#188

Post by Alifatisk »

mnau wrote: post #147
Alifatisk wrote: post #71

Bummer, so all these recent news about Apple allowing push notifications and PWAs to iPhone was for nothing?

If you are ouside of EU, it wasn't for nothing. EU is only sixths of world GDP and shrinking.

That’s a big if

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#189

Post by paulmd »

summerlight wrote: post #145
anon84873628 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there is a significant number of people who consider it as a compromise rather than a value. I suspect that from Apple's perspective, it is definitively not a significant number. For Apple, ownership of the "trust problem" is an intrinsic part of "making good products".

> For Apple, ownership of the "trust problem" is an intrinsic part of "making good products". Yes, this might be true. And the majority of elected officials in EU fundamentally disagrees with that statement.

Yeah, as I’ve said before: the root problem here is that the EU wants to outlaw apples business model.

People don’t think of it that way, they tell themselves all the reasons why that’s a good thing, but that’s ultimately what it is - a legislative solution to end the “android vs iOS” debate for all time.

The argument is walled gardens shouldn’t exist, so the solution is to either legislate requirements that apple destroy the walls, or that they exit the market. That is a statement that most android advocates would agree with.

And the EU will largely just keep ratcheting up the legislation until that happens. Driving apple out is the point - walled gardens are (in the EU sense) unacceptable and the option for a walled-garden business model needs to be removed from the market.

Apple is (correctly) perceiving this and pulling out of the market, first by dropping the affected features, and I’m sure there will be a “next compliance requirement” before many years too.

Re: Apple confirms it's breaking iPhone web apps in the EU on purpose

#190

Post by dingle_thunk »

summerlight wrote: post #145
anon84873628 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there is a significant number of people who consider it as a compromise rather than a value. I suspect that from Apple's perspective, it is definitively not a significant number. For Apple, ownership of the "trust problem" is an intrinsic part of "making good products".

> For Apple, ownership of the "trust problem" is an intrinsic part of "making good products". Yes, this might be true. And the majority of elected officials in EU fundamentally disagrees with that statement.

Because of course elected officials without any expertise, representing a very small minority of humanity, are the best arbiters of reality.
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