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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#531

Post by strulovich »

akira2501 wrote: post #480
robertoandred wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not an apartheid nation. Over 20% of Israelis are Arab.

Are they represented in any way in the Knesset? Are they treated the same is Jewish Israeli citizens when travelling? What about the Arabs in East Jerusalem? Are non Jewish citizens actually afforded equal protections under the Basic Laws? Does the "Law of Return" apply to non-Jewish Israelis? Economically, how are the Arabs doing compared to the Jews?

Yes to all but the last.

(That’s not to say they’re not infringed implicitly in the same ways a minority group in the US or Europe is, but the law gives Israeli citizens generally the same rights whether they’re Arab or not.)

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#532

Post by JumpCrisscross »

dragonwriter wrote: post #425
blitz_skull wrote: post #282

What's the ICJ's actual ability to enforce this? "Orders" sounds like they have some sort of weight to throw around if Israel doesn't comply, but I'm not familiar with the ICJ or what possible consequences could arise if Israel simply decided it was going to do what it wanted.

> What's the ICJ's actual ability to enforce this? Zero, the same as most courts. Enforcement is a matter for (ordinarily) the Security Council, or, in the case of deadlock, potentially the GA acting under Uniting for Peace. Well, decisions on enforcement; actual enforcement is left to individual UN members, acting on direction of those UN bodies. Note that enforcement in practice is often a problem, as with the prov…

> Zero, the same as most courts

Well, Israel is a treaty signatory. That means an ICJ ruling is executable under Israeli law.

That means jack shit right now. But every action taken hereonforth, by leadership or command or individual soldiers, carries with it the burden of future prosecution.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#533

Post by mrguyorama »

pphysch wrote: post #450
StriverGuy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Hamas have to adhere to an ICJ ordered ceasefire?

Hamas/Al-Qassam Brigades outright said today that they would willingly comply with a ceasefire order.

And we should believe that why? They have also said they would do Oct 7th again as many times as they could.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#534

Post by munk-a »

MeImCounting wrote: post #523
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

The US Government continues to employ militarized forces to suppress Indigenous resistance to this very day.

Yea, I think it's pretty odd how little awareness of tribal councils, discussions of self-governance, and resistance from Native Americans there is in the modern America but it feels like the US almost wants to forget it has reservations.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#535

Post by aprilthird2021 »

robertoandred wrote: post #447
akira2501 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It’s not an apartheid nation. Over 20% of Israelis are Arab.

Israel also controls the lives of all Palestinians, so the total % of Arabs out of controlled citizens by the Israeli government is over 50%, but most Arabs are disenfranchised by Israel, that's the fundamental root of why it is an apartheid state

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#536

Post by ajb »

dragonwriter wrote: post #388
ajb wrote: post #36

The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…

> a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have much effect since there are 17 other judges There are 15 ICJ judges, plus the two ad hoc judges appointed by the parties.

Yes, my error. 17 is the total number of judges in this case.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#537

Post by locallost »

pgeorgi wrote: post #474
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician. But for me it's important to keep in mind what he is saying here and also in another part explicitly: a diplomatic solution is possible and history proves that. So what I can do is reject the notion that what is happening is unavoidable.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#538

Post by sydd »

kar5pt wrote: post #454
TheCapeGreek wrote: post #71

I usually refrain from making much political commentary. I will say this: SA is a deeply troubled country, but for once I think the ruling government has actually done a good thing by pursuing this.

Have you read through their case? It's pretty weak in my opinion. They seem to think that any war with a high number of casualties and insufficient humanitarian aid counts as genocide. By their standard the US committed "genocide" against Japan in WW2, arguably Germany too.

By todays standard it would be a genocide. How do you think people would react if e.g. Russia nuked 2 large cities in Ukraine leading to 100K+ deaths?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#539

Post by goatlover »

lolinder wrote: post #502
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law of retaliation is a never-ending cycle How many wars have the US and Japan fought after WWII? Or France and Germany after WWII? How many wars have the US Government and Native Americans fought after 1900? Sometimes a clear, overwhelming victory ends cycles of violence.

Germany and Japan's peaceful modern history are less due to a clear, overwhelming victory than they were due to the recognition of an absolutely horrific chapter in their country's respective histories and a major cultural movement against the possibility of those kinds of atrocities happening again. Either country could easily come up with more than enough military might to win a war if they chose, but the horrors t…

Once their WW2 militaries were utterly defeated and their leadership was forced into unconditional surrender, followed by Allied occupation and rebuilding.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#540

Post by aprilthird2021 »

jmyeet wrote: post #494

It's worth noting that the ICJ like pretty much all international bodies has no enforcement power and countries will routinely ingore the rulings they don't like. Still, things like this matter. It adds to public pressure. Another thing is that how judges rule will often align with national interests rather than any facts in any case. So in a case against Israel you might expect the US to side with Israel regardless…

The US judge seemed to go with the majority here. The Israeli judge concurred on some of the charges plausibility but not all. Only one judge disagreed with the court on all charges.

I don't think the judges had the kind of bias alleged by your comment (it's certainly possible they could have but their opinions don't seem to reflect that)

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