[flagged]
Genocide isn't about kill counts, it's about goals and the way you go about achieving them.
ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
451–460 of 1001 posts
Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
#452Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t love Trump, but there’s no denying there was far less war, and especially US-funded war, when he was in office. Ukraine-Russia massively escalated as soon as someone in the pocket of the military industrial complex got put in power, as Putin knew it would, and Israel followed suit soon after.
I find it hard to believe there’s correlation between the beginnings of Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Hamas and who the US president is. If anything, Russia and Hamas are each less likely to spark each conflict (in the specific sense of invading Ukraine and 7 October, not the preconditions) knowing that the US is more likely to provide arms to Ukraine and Israel.
Considering Hamas' plan all along was to martyrize the Gaza population by feeding it to the lions, subsequently sabotaging Israel's relations with its neighbors and the global community, it does make sense they decided to provoke a war during Biden's term, a very outspoken zionist.
Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
> SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights. Well, who does? Among the major players in world politics I can't see any country with a clean reputation on human rights. Disclaimer: I am Brazilian, a country with an horrible record of police brutality, of farmers killing indigenous people and environmental activists and an hypocritical ambivalence towards Putin's crimes…
I mean, sure. Personally, I’m a relativist. It’s just weird to see the country that recently bent itself backwards—like no other country—to let Vladimir Putin into its territory (it was reported they even considering leaving the ICC), is now bringing suit in the ICC for arguably less worse crimes than Putin. SA was not just apathetic to the genocide/domicide in Ukraine, it basically went out of its way to be party to…
SA is dealing with Russia, so it might want to help Russia’s allies, and one of them is Iran who incidentally dreams of nothing less than, well, wiping Israel off the map with wiping out Jews as a cherry on top. Oops.
It’s all a tangled mess and I wouldn’t haste to take everything diplomats say at face value.
Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
#454I usually refrain from making much political commentary. I will say this: SA is a deeply troubled country, but for once I think the ruling government has actually done a good thing by pursuing this.
Have you read through their case? It's pretty weak in my opinion. They seem to think that any war with a high number of casualties and insufficient humanitarian aid counts as genocide. By their standard the US committed "genocide" against Japan in WW2, arguably Germany too.
Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
#455[flagged]
Both of these numbers pale in comparison to the civilian losses of Germany in WWII, and the Allies are not generally considered to have performed a genocide. Clearly the absolute number of casualties (not even civilian casualties in this case, that is allegedly more like 15k) is not sufficient on its own to define a genocide.
I don't think it's controversial to say that the Allies did ethnically cleanse parts of Eastern Europe to remove as many Germans as possible into German borders or internment camps, and they weren't too fussed if they died as a result.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German...
For example, look at the section for Czechoslovakia (selecting it since it's inarguable Germans had lived in the country formerly known as Bohemia for centuries) alone:
> Between 700,000 and 800,000 Germans were affected by irregular expulsions between May and August 1945.[108] The expulsions were encouraged by Czechoslovak politicians and were generally executed by order of local authorities, mostly by groups of armed volunteers and the army.[109] [...] Transfers of population under the Potsdam agreements lasted from January until October 1946. 1.9 million ethnic Germans were expelled to the American zone, part of what would become West Germany. [...] More than 1 million were expelled to the Soviet zone, which later became East Germany.[110] The West German government estimated the expulsion death toll at 273,000 civilians,[115] and this figure is cited in historical literature.[116] However, in 1995, research by a joint German and Czech commission of historians found that the previous demographic estimates of 220,000 to 270,000 deaths to be overstated and based on faulty information. They concluded that the death toll was between 15,000 and 30,000 dead, assuming that not all deaths were reported.[117][118][119][120]
It's just that 'forced population transfers' were historically considered not outside the bounds of propriety.
Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
#456Earlier quoted context omitted.
> when one side gives up. > disproportionality of this conflict Why is disproportionality meaningful at all? Clearly Israel is under attack. They have full right to subdue those attacks through all means necessary. I would hope every government provides the same for their people (and it is so easy to criticize Israel with all of us coming from countries that do protect our safety). Unfortunately Hamas has no regard f…
Why is disproportionality meaningful ? Why is 695 dead Israeli civilians against 15-20000 dead Palestinian civilians meaningful? Because it goes to the hypocritical heart of what a life is worth to a tribesman. And no they DO NOT have full right to subdue those attacks through all means necessary. There are laws to warfare. Dropping large bombs on a densely populated area of civilians is a breach of those laws. Find…
I think in the history of warfare - especially when looking at wars that successfully and positively changed the course of history - winning usually requires one to "take it to the people" - especially when its a populace that at a minimum passively supports the regime that produces continuous warfare.
I specifically think of Japan and Germany in World War II. To a lesser extent, I think of the American South in the American Civil War.
My thinking here is greatly influenced by this fascinating book.
Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
#457[flagged]
Did you know that Israel controls a whopping 13% of Gaza's water? Maybe that wasn’t widely reported for some reason.
Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
#458Earlier quoted context omitted.
HN's approach to stories with political overlap has been stable for many years*. I've written about it many times: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... . If you read some of those past explanations and still have a question about our general approach, let me know what it is. As for this particular story, I turned off the flags on it because it clearly counts as SNI (significant new informat…
Yet you banned all the posts on Oct 7?
You aren't the only one who has noticed.
Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
#459Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hamas barely scraped into victory in a power sharing agreement it then broke. Gazan at that time did not want this government. Half of Gaza's present population wasn't even born at the time of the last election. To blame Palestinians generally (including in the West Bank who are effectively being punished too) for this is exceedingly unfair. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-electe... Compare culp…
Poll showing 75% in Gaza believe the attack on Israel was correct. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palesti... Seeing how they literally took hostages, in addition to targeting and killing civilians, I'm honestly not sure how you can argue it wasn't a terrorist attack.
Yeah it's understandable why though from your own article:
>The PCPSR poll found that 44% of Gazans say they have enough food and water for a day or two, and 56% say that they do not. Almost two-thirds of Gazan respondents - 64% - said a member of their family had been killed or injured in the war.
>Fifty-two percent of Gazans and 85% of West Bank respondents - or 72% of Palestinian respondents overall - voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war. Only 11% of Palestinian voiced satisfaction with PA President Mahmoud Abbas.
I would wager that actually means they're satisfied that there's "someone fighting for their rights" rather than they're satisfied with terrorism.
From another article[1]: "Israelis reject U.S. pressure to shift the war in Gaza to a phase with less heavy bombing in populated areas by a ratio of 2-1...Only 23 percent answered that Israel should agree to the U.S. demand "that Israel shifts to a different phase of the war in Gaza, with an emphasis on reducing the heavy bombing of densely populated areas...A full 75 percent of Jewish respondents said Israel should ignore the U.S. pressure"
So it seems the same number of Jewish respondents are ok with the genocide occurring right now. Like I said in another comment, both Hamas and Israel seem to have genocidal intentions but only one side is actively pursuing it at the moment.
[1]: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-02/ty-article/75...
Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire
#460The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…
Barak is no fan of the current Israeli government. And they often attacked him publicly and organized demonstrations around his home. They truly sent the best international law expert the country has to offer
This is more nuanced. Some people in the government respect Barak. I don't know that Barak is active in politics (I haven't really heard him opine on the current government, but one can imagine he's not a fan). The more extreme parties in the government resent/oppose Barak. The "government" doesn't attack Barak or protest against him but certainly some (extreme/right-wing) political factions in Israel blame him for many things. I don't think he was sent because he's necessarily the best international law expert, but he's a very sharp and widely respected. His being sent while the government is trying to undermine the practices Barak established in the supreme court is a bit weird. Politics.