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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#351

Post by throwaway587 »

throwaway587 wrote: post #279
voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

This is a question you need to ask Jewish people, not HN. The response you'll get here obviously won't answer this question, because the people responding are either not Jewish, or the format doesn't lend itself to a genuine answer. But, a mistake you make in asking the question is two-fold, one - the Holocaust was not a lesson taught to Jews so they'll learn empathy. It was something horrible and traumatic that was…

One more small point - people here mention how long ago the Holocaust was and far removed from memory. That's not really true. If you look at Pew 2013 poll of American Jews [0] they found:

> About three-quarters (73%) of American Jews say remembering the Holocaust is an essential part of being Jewish

that's above any other option.

[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/08/13/70-years-...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#352

Post by jdietrich »

krainboltgreene wrote: post #296
nradov wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The civilian death toll in Gaza has been tragically high but there hasn't been any independent verification. Regardless of what's on Wikipedia, we can't trust specific numbers.

The state of israel agrees with and trust sthe numbers coming from Gaza: https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-hea...

While their statistics are regarded as an accurate account of the total death toll, they make no distinction between civilian and combatant deaths. This is obviously a crucial shortcoming if we are trying to ascertain whether the number of civilian deaths are disproportionate to the military objectives.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#354

Post by jjcon »

sp527 wrote: post #303
theferalrobot wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hamas is the ruling party/government of Gaza.

Because Netanyahu wanted it to be that way. Here's the Times of Israel debunking this propaganda line: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... .

The people voted for Hamas = Hamas government. Just because some Israeli politicians were at one point supportive of Hamas is relevant how?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#355

Post by r00fus »

shmatt wrote: post #140
aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

[flagged]

Biden apparently wants to lose. Watch every single campaign event be protested (many protesters are Jews). Yeah, that's definitely going to lower turnout on the DEM side.

Biden is not only going to lose, Trump might even get a trifecta.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#356

Post by Sporktacular »

theferalrobot wrote: post #252
Sporktacular wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All wars end when one side gives up. Attacks and land theft on West Bank Palestinians are at a record high too. This will only end with the creation of a viable Palestinian state. "This is war, there will be loss of life" is such a callous way to dismiss the disproportionality of this conflict.

> when one side gives up. > disproportionality of this conflict Why is disproportionality meaningful at all? Clearly Israel is under attack. They have full right to subdue those attacks through all means necessary. I would hope every government provides the same for their people (and it is so easy to criticize Israel with all of us coming from countries that do protect our safety). Unfortunately Hamas has no regard f…

Why is disproportionality meaningful ? Why is 695 dead Israeli civilians against 15-20000 dead Palestinian civilians meaningful? Because it goes to the hypocritical heart of what a life is worth to a tribesman.

And no they DO NOT have full right to subdue those attacks through all means necessary. There are laws to warfare. Dropping large bombs on a densely populated area of civilians is a breach of those laws. Find another way to get rid of Hamas but show respect civilian life.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#357

Post by bawolff »

mantas wrote: post #274
threeseed wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Because they are a terrorist organisation. Israel is expected to because they are not.

Hamas is democratically elected government in Gaza.

It doesn't matter. Hamas is not a member of the ICJ. The state of palestine is a member but hamas aren't recognized as the representive of the state of palestine.

Additionally, the state of palestine is not a party to this case.

So no, the icj cannot tell hamas to do anything. The only people it can give orders to in this case are israel and south africa.

Hamas's crines are the juridsiction of the ICC.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#358

Post by orochimaaru »

mantas wrote: post #274
threeseed wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Because they are a terrorist organisation. Israel is expected to because they are not.

Hamas is democratically elected government in Gaza.

Not entirely true. Yes, they were elected in 2007 but they have not allowed the Fatah after that. The last election may have been 2012. So considering the amount of time elapsed I wouldn’t consider them legitimately elected.

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#359

Post by nradov »

worik wrote: post #331
timcobb wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> South Africa asks ICC to exempt it from Putin arrest https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2YY1E6/ SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights.

True Nation states are often immoral and hypocritical The outrage from the USA at the invasion of Ukraine, when the invasion of Iraq is a crime of the same magnitude - both dreadful stains on humanity Most recently the international support for the actions of the IDF whilst condemning Russian actions in Ukraine SA is just normal in this regard

From a narrow, legalistic perspective Iraq was in material breach of UN Security Council Resolution 1441 in 2003 and so the invasion was justified on that basis. I am not arguing that the invasion was right (or even remotely a good idea), just that it was never firmly established as illegal under any treaty in force at the time. By contrast, there was never even a fig leaf of a legal justification for Russia's invasions of Ukraine in 2014 and 2022.

https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/478123?ln=en

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