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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#421

Post by sebzim4500 »

r00fus wrote: post #355
shmatt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Biden apparently wants to lose. Watch every single campaign event be protested (many protesters are Jews). Yeah, that's definitely going to lower turnout on the DEM side. Biden is not only going to lose, Trump might even get a trifecta.

I'm not sure the protestors will be a net negative, lots of people protested trump in 2016 and them getting thrown out only encouraged his base. If you watch the videos of the Biden interruptions the crowd stays firmly on Biden's side.

Biden's issues at the moment are that economic sentiment is a lagging indicator of some variables that have only recently recovered to their normal values (inflation etc.). If these issues fix themselves we will have a better sense of whether Israel-Hamas War has meaningfully impacted him.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#422

Post by sebzim4500 »

theyinwhy wrote: post #173
aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

The US, under whichever administration, is in a very difficult position here. If the US stops all support immediately, this could be the end of Israel. Would that be just? I see a president carefully dancing on the thin line of supporting the Israel state while using the US leverage to stop the war (latest example: sending the CIA chief to the negotiating table). But this needs to be done without enabling Israel's bi…

>If the US stops all support immediately, this could be the end of Israel

I doubt it, Israel would nuke Iran before letting this happen.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#423

Post by envfriendly »

dragonwriter wrote: post #383
envfriendly wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Spin this any way you like but The International Court of Justice said there is no genocide No, it didn't, that’s simply a lie. It said that the pleadings were sufficient plausible and that conditions present a sufficient risk of irreparable harm to warrant provisional measures against Israel. It didn't say that there is no genocide, and it didn't say that there is a genocide. The application for provisional measur…

> It didn't say that there is no genocide, and it didn't say that there is a genocide.

It may change, but CURRENTLY, it does not think there's sufficient evidence to rule in favour of provisional measures, i.e., it does not think there is a genocide.

Resorting to legalese isn't changing this fact.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#424

Post by zmgsabst »

TheCapeGreek wrote: post #71

I usually refrain from making much political commentary. I will say this: SA is a deeply troubled country, but for once I think the ruling government has actually done a good thing by pursuing this.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#425

Post by dragonwriter »

blitz_skull wrote: post #282

What's the ICJ's actual ability to enforce this? "Orders" sounds like they have some sort of weight to throw around if Israel doesn't comply, but I'm not familiar with the ICJ or what possible consequences could arise if Israel simply decided it was going to do what it wanted.

> What's the ICJ's actual ability to enforce this?

Zero, the same as most courts.

Enforcement is a matter for (ordinarily) the Security Council, or, in the case of deadlock, potentially the GA acting under Uniting for Peace. Well, decisions on enforcement; actual enforcement is left to individual UN members, acting on direction of those UN bodies.

Note that enforcement in practice is often a problem, as with the provisional measures adopted against Russia in the Ukraine v. Russia genocide case.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#426

Post by arrosenberg »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #193
xenospn wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has exactly zero chances of happening. Israel would never let anyone they don’t approve of get anywhere near Gaza.

That is definitely Israel’s intention, but suppose China did go for it. Does Israel have the stones for direct airstrike on Chinese fleet? It’s gonna get messy. It’s a big game of chicken, I am not sure who I would bet on.

How is the Chinese Navy getting there? Gotta go through Gibraltar or Suez, and then there is the NATO naval base at Souda Bay. Only way their ships get close is with US consent.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#427

Post by The_Colonel »

Beefin wrote: post #390
The_Colonel wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is the security issue of a Palestinian population that has held since 1948 that they are still at war with Israel, will never accept a Jewish state in the region Will Israelis accept a sovereign Palestinian state in the region? A clear NO. Even the 1990s / 2000s two-state solutions were never meant from Israeli side as recognizing full sovereignty of Palestine - it was meant to be more like an Israeli protectorate…

[flagged]

> not a single country will accept a soverein Palestenian state, because they're ruled by terrorists.

You yourself say that Palestinians can live completely peacefully, why can't they have a sovereign state with a better government? I hope that after years of Israeli government / Netanyahu supporting Hamas [1], they will change the strategy.

1. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

> 20% of the Knessest is Muslim/Arab. Have you been to Israel? Muslims, Jews, Christians all coexist peacefully you have no idea what apartheid means.

The apartheid regime is instituted in Gaza and West Bank, not in Israel proper.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#428

Post by Sporktacular »

jdietrich wrote: post #189
smoothjazz wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about religion, it's about occupation. Zionists got permission to occupy the land from the British with The Balfour Declaration then started the invasion in full in 1948 with Nakba. When you occupy someone's land, there can never be peace until they get their land back or are fully exterminated or controlled militarily. This is why colonization most often leads to genocide or permanent apartheid.

>Zionists got permission to occupy the land from the British with The Balfour Declaration This is not an accurate representation. Jewish people were given the legal ability to purchase land in Mandatory Palestine. The vast majority of Palestinian Arabs were tenant farmers or landless labourers. Jewish land purchases inevitably led to the displacement of these tenants, but this was the lawful outcome of a lawful land…

So what if that's true (and it's not entirely true - there was forced takeovers of land, and there continues to be land theft in the West Bank today).

If I sell you my land, does that make it right for you to form a separate state with it? Perhaps I would rethink that decision with the advance knowledge of your intentions.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#429

Post by dragonwriter »

timcobb wrote: post #200
TheCapeGreek wrote: post #71

I usually refrain from making much political commentary. I will say this: SA is a deeply troubled country, but for once I think the ruling government has actually done a good thing by pursuing this.

> South Africa asks ICC to exempt it from Putin arrest https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2YY1E6/ SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights.

> SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights.

Adversarial justice systems are an approach to dealing with the fact that individual actors in a system (including states in the international system) tend to be self-interested rather than earnest or true consistent advocates of the notional rules of the system.

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