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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#341

Post by albntomat0 »

explaininjs wrote: post #276
shmatt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don’t love Trump, but there’s no denying there was far less war, and especially US-funded war, when he was in office. Ukraine-Russia massively escalated as soon as someone in the pocket of the military industrial complex got put in power, as Putin knew it would, and Israel followed suit soon after.

I find it hard to believe there’s correlation between the beginnings of Russia-Ukraine and Israel-Hamas and who the US president is.

If anything, Russia and Hamas are each less likely to spark each conflict (in the specific sense of invading Ukraine and 7 October, not the preconditions) knowing that the US is more likely to provide arms to Ukraine and Israel.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#343

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

Sporktacular wrote: post #281
vladgur wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in my 20s and remember the feeling in the air after Al Qaeda members hijacked commercial planes and flew them into WTC in 2001. Fear, Anger, A bit of revenge. Many of Americans, including soviet immigrants, enlisted in the army driven by that feeling. Israelis lost significantly more of their population percentage-wise during October 7 attack perpetrated by the official government of Gaza AND as we know now, so…

Hamas barely scraped into victory in a power sharing agreement it then broke. Gazan at that time did not want this government. Half of Gaza's present population wasn't even born at the time of the last election. To blame Palestinians generally (including in the West Bank who are effectively being punished too) for this is exceedingly unfair. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/was-hamas-electe... Compare culp…

Poll showing 75% in Gaza believe the attack on Israel was correct.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palesti...

Seeing how they literally took hostages, in addition to targeting and killing civilians, I'm honestly not sure how you can argue it wasn't a terrorist attack.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#344

Post by The_Colonel »

drc500free wrote: post #14
tycho-newman wrote: post #3

Under the Rome Statute that set up the international criminal court, apartheid is defined as a crime where: >inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them". Netanyahu's approach to the Palestinians likely fits into this definition.

It's worth noting that system does not apply to 2 million Israeli Arabs (nearly all of whom self-identify as "Palestinian" from an ethnic/national perspective) of the exact same race as the Palestinians in the occupied territories. The overt driver of the system - and the one that is agreed to across the whole Jewish-Israeli population - is the security issue of a Palestinian population that has held since 1948 that…

> is the security issue of a Palestinian population that has held since 1948 that they are still at war with Israel, will never accept a Jewish state in the region

Will Israelis accept a sovereign Palestinian state in the region? A clear NO.

Even the 1990s / 2000s two-state solutions were never meant from Israeli side as recognizing full sovereignty of Palestine - it was meant to be more like an Israeli protectorate with its own administration but without its own armed forces, no control over air space etc.

> and will one day drive the Jews into the sea

While many Israelis are eager to drive Palestinians to the sea. (check Daniela Weiss as a somewhat prominent example)

The current government seems to want to ethnically cleanse Gaza. The West Bank has to expect a similar fate, just way slower with expanding settlements.

> but I think it's difficult to claim that the current system is primarily an ethnic or racial one when it doesn't apply to the millions of Palestinians who are accepting of their neighbors

Still apartheid. You can't explain it away so easily.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#345

Post by Aunche »

krainboltgreene wrote: post #305
Aunche wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am so deeply disappointed in the Biden administration here. What do you expect him to do? With or without any assistance, Israel has more than enough weapons completely annihilate Gaza. Don't forget that they likely have nuclear capabilities. Israel believes they are demonstrating restraint and this restraint is the first thing to go if Israel feels like it's being backed into a corner.

> What do you expect him to do? At least as much as Ronald Regan: https://www.upi.com/Archives/1982/08/12/A-shocked-and-outrag...

A major difference is that Israel instigated the first large scale attacks in the 1982 War, whereas Hamas instigated the ongoing war.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#346

Post by EvgeniyZh »

masom wrote: post #292
surume wrote: post #263

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the…

> Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. > we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them > we have no choice but to kill them too bruh... Those are war crimes according to the UN https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

> which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;

You can't just put a single civilian in every military base and be protected by international law. Collateral damage isn't necessarily a war crime.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#347

Post by rightbyte »

tomp wrote: post #330
rightbyte wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese warships will never be allowed anywhere near the Mediterranean in the first place There have been Chinese navy visits to the Mediterranean. You can sail in on international water. (Edit: Nope, it's to narrow) "Chinese naval ships visit Morocco" http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/CHINA_209163/Exchanges/News_20918...

Casablanca is Atlantic, not Mediterranean. You cannot get into the Mediterranean without passing through territorial waters.

Ok the Strait of Gibraltar was way narrower than I thought it would be and I mixed up the location of Marocco and Tunisia ...

Grabbing for straws: "Chinese naval escort taskforce visits Tunisia"

http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/CHINA_209163/TopStories_209189/79...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#349

Post by jjcon »

notaustinpowers wrote: post #308
jjcon wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where they were before October 7th except civilians would be much worse off. Still living under Israeli occupation with limited freedom of movement Israel hasn't had any presence in Gaza for nearly 20 years.

A lack of presence does not equal a lack of control. Israel still controls Palestinian air and maritime space, telecommunications, water, electricity, and border crossings. While Israel may not have had a military presence since 2006, their control over the region did not do the same.

Goalpost moving aside, that statement is definitively untrue.

For one, Israel does not control the Gaza border with Egypt (which shocker... Egypt does). Israel has provided a ton of humanitarian aid to Gaza over the years including water and electricity but they do not control their water or electricity (kinda hard to do that or even claim that is being done since they don't have a presence in the country).

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#350

Post by sebzim4500 »

Sporktacular wrote: post #315
nradov wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The civilian death toll in Gaza has been tragically high but there hasn't been any independent verification. Regardless of what's on Wikipedia, we can't trust specific numbers.

Do you believe 695 Israeli civilians, 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139? They're all numbers from the Israeli government. Weird how only disputing the Hamas numbers as biased is a talking point.

It is way easier to verify those numbers though, there is an actual list of names and journalists can (and have) talk to the families etc.
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