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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#441

Post by robertoandred »

smoothjazz wrote: post #412
sebzim4500 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of these numbers pale in comparison to the civilian losses of Germany in WWII, and the Allies are not generally considered to have performed a genocide. Clearly the absolute number of casualties (not even civilian casualties in this case, that is allegedly more like 15k) is not sufficient on its own to define a genocide.

The raw number of people killed isn't indicative of a genocide, it's intent and actions against a specific population. Over 1.5 million (out of 2 million) Gaza residents are displaced and facing starvation. Almost all of the hospitals in Gaza have been destroyed. Many would say Israel is committing genocide and the court today said they will continue the investigation because it's plausible.

[flagged]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#442

Post by hrnnnnnn »

smoothjazz wrote: post #412
sebzim4500 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of these numbers pale in comparison to the civilian losses of Germany in WWII, and the Allies are not generally considered to have performed a genocide. Clearly the absolute number of casualties (not even civilian casualties in this case, that is allegedly more like 15k) is not sufficient on its own to define a genocide.

The raw number of people killed isn't indicative of a genocide, it's intent and actions against a specific population. Over 1.5 million (out of 2 million) Gaza residents are displaced and facing starvation. Almost all of the hospitals in Gaza have been destroyed. Many would say Israel is committing genocide and the court today said they will continue the investigation because it's plausible.

Indeed, you don't even need to kill to commit a genocidal act, you can also prevent people from having children.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#443

Post by biorach »

drc500free wrote: post #394
biorach wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel shows every day that they are willing and able to live closely with the Palestinians who accept their right to exist and aren't trying to murder their families, without using apartheid-like systems of control This is very much not the case in the West Bank where expropriation and colonisation of Palestinian land by Israeli settlers continue, under the watchful eye of the Israeli army. The Israeli state has d…

I agree that the actions in the occupied territories are oppressive and terrible. I was referring to the actions within Israel itself, towards Israeli Arab Citizens. Which shows that the oppressive actions is not based on ethnicity or religion, it's based on fear.

... and an opportunistic land-grab on a huge scale at the expense of Palestinians.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#444

Post by dragonwriter »

blitz_skull wrote: post #434
dragonwriter wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the ICJ's actual ability to enforce this? Zero, the same as most courts. Enforcement is a matter for (ordinarily) the Security Council, or, in the case of deadlock, potentially the GA acting under Uniting for Peace. Well, decisions on enforcement; actual enforcement is left to individual UN members, acting on direction of those UN bodies. Note that enforcement in practice is often a problem, as with the prov…

Am I to understand then that a member of the UN could decide that intervene? Or would they need to be “allowed” to intervene on behalf of the ICJ?

> Am I to understand then that a member of the UN could decide that intervene?

Unilateral intervention against genocide is possible and arguably legal even without an ICJ ruling, but ordinarily the preferred method would be sanction from the UN via a Security Council resolution, or by a General Assembly resolution from an emergency special session called to address a Security Council deadlock.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#446

Post by pphysch »

sebzim4500 wrote: post #410
rufus_foreman wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Israel believes they are demonstrating restraint From the section of the ICJ ruling dealing with dehumanizing language used by Israeli officials: > "I have released all restraints . . . You saw what we are fighting against. We are fighting human animals" -- Mr Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister of Israel

Ok but they haven't literally released all restraints because no nuclear weapons have been used.

Why would they use nuclear weapons on territory they intend to annex and settle?

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#448

Post by zmgsabst »

smoothjazz wrote: post #412
sebzim4500 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of these numbers pale in comparison to the civilian losses of Germany in WWII, and the Allies are not generally considered to have performed a genocide. Clearly the absolute number of casualties (not even civilian casualties in this case, that is allegedly more like 15k) is not sufficient on its own to define a genocide.

The raw number of people killed isn't indicative of a genocide, it's intent and actions against a specific population. Over 1.5 million (out of 2 million) Gaza residents are displaced and facing starvation. Almost all of the hospitals in Gaza have been destroyed. Many would say Israel is committing genocide and the court today said they will continue the investigation because it's plausible.

That alone doesn’t amount to a genocide:

- They’re displaced because there was active fighting in their homes.

- Hospitals were destroyed because they were being used as military outposts.

Neither of those violates the rules of war, though Hamas using hospitals as outposts is a war crime.

I think it’s a tragedy the government of Gaza brought this disaster down upon them by committing war crimes against their stronger neighbor and then further war crimes using their own population as human shields.

But that’s not a genocide.

Gaza can surrender any time and the collateral damage isn’t out of line with modern urban conflicts. Eg, US in Iraq.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#449

Post by frob »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #324
shmatt wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Calling it a Muslim ban is pretty disingenuous, and always was. The ban left out some very large Muslim countries, such as Indonesia and Pakistan for example.

He campaigned on banning Muslims. He then tried three different times to ban a large amount of Muslims. He regularly denigrates Muslims and blames them for our problems. According to his own people, he wanted to ban Muslims and wanted a fig-leaf to do it legally [1].

This kinda comes down to a case of who are you going to believe, a notorious fraudster and conman or your own lying eyes?

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/tr...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#450

Post by pphysch »

StriverGuy wrote: post #116
aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

Does Hamas have to adhere to an ICJ ordered ceasefire?

Hamas/Al-Qassam Brigades outright said today that they would willingly comply with a ceasefire order.
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