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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#401

Respectfully, would you have made the same comment about 'finding a place in your heart for the humanity of the other' if we lived during the holocaust, where 'one side' was being maimed and killed by the other, more powerful side? Would you have made the same comment if we were talking about apartheid in South Africa? How about if we were talking about how slavery ought to be stopped prior to 1865? Should we _always…

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#402

What's the ICJ's actual ability to enforce this? "Orders" sounds like they have some sort of weight to throw around if Israel doesn't comply, but I'm not familiar with the ICJ or what possible consequences could arise if Israel simply decided it was going to do what it wanted.

In theory i think they are supposed to ask the security council to step in if the order is ignored. Which would be unlikely to do anything, so nothing. I think its likely israel will comply. The order is pretty weak and mostly stuff israel already claims to be doing. It wouldn't be worth the PR hassle to ignore it.

Israel's government doesn't care about PR hassle from the usual suspect. We may notice that they've had plenty of that lately and it did not stop them at all.

Even if doing what the ICJ wants is easy, there's a strong reason not to (from their perspective) - it implies the ICJ should be obeyed and legitimizes them. But why should Israel do that? It's just another leftie NGO from Netenyahu's perspective. Start following what those guys want and soon they will have to do nothing even as Hamas attacks again and again.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> South Africa asks ICC to exempt it from Putin arrest https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2YY1E6/ SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights.

> SA does not really present itself as an earnest or true actor in the sphere oh human rights. Well, who does? Among the major players in world politics I can't see any country with a clean reputation on human rights. Disclaimer: I am Brazilian, a country with an horrible record of police brutality, of farmers killing indigenous people and environmental activists and an hypocritical ambivalence towards Putin's crimes…

I mean, sure. Personally, I’m a relativist. It’s just weird to see the country that recently bent itself backwards—like no other country—to let Vladimir Putin into its territory (it was reported they even considering leaving the ICC), is now bringing suit in the ICC for arguably less worse crimes than Putin. SA was not just apathetic to the genocide/domicide in Ukraine, it basically went out of its way to be party to it. Now it’s taking Israel to court. strange. Sure, many countries are still dealing with Russia, but only SA is dealing with Russia _and_ bringing countries to The Hague at the same time.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#405
post #98

There is another player. China is interested in resolving the Gaza conflict.[1] China's position is that, since the existing world order, the International Court of Justice and the United States, can't resolve this, China should become involved. Chinese container shipping lines COSCO and OOCL have suspended trade with Israel. China has already provided some aid to Gaza.[2] Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has…

Pointlessly going to war with Israel would be so far out of character for China that I can't even imagine why you are suggesting this possibility.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zionism is an ideology that took inspiration from the British empire. It was intended to be "something colonial" and pre-dated the atrocities of WW2. The fascist atrocities in WW2 can be interpreted as colonial tactics applied to Europeans, after all the British had been doing extremely bloody concentration camps in Africa and starved India during WW2. For some reason, Africa doesn't get the same play. I wonder why.…

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With what borders exactly???

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#407
post #379
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly. They sent the guy who controls the local judiciary because not doing so would be impossible due to his immense political power. The Israeli judiciary is unique in nominating itself and having given itself the power to cancel any law or demand any changes to laws/policy on any arbitrary basis; since this state of affairs is backed up by a sufficient number of powerful institutions, it is effectively impos…

Don't quite understand that? Aharon Barak was chief justice, but retired in 2006 and is 87 years old.

Most of the judiciary are his loyalists. An example of his ongoing influence is the ridiculous legal doctrine invented just this year where the Israeli declaration of independence was retroactively declared to be the supreme law of the land, akin to a "meta-constitution"; his opinion on the matter was published after many months of campaigns where people would declare their "allegiance to the declaration of independence."

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#408
post #36

The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…

Notably also voted against telling Israel to follow the raw key prohibitions of Genocide convention as written in the convention, something Israel agreed to in the past. Curious.

Also voted against asking Israel to preserve evidence of the crimes. Interesting perspective for a former judge.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state of israel agrees with and trust sthe numbers coming from Gaza: https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-intel-confirms-gaza-hea...

While their statistics are regarded as an accurate account of the total death toll, they make no distinction between civilian and combatant deaths. This is obviously a crucial shortcoming if we are trying to ascertain whether the number of civilian deaths are disproportionate to the military objectives.

If we go all 19th century and assert that all men over the age of 18 are combatants. Then we get 70% of the deaths are civilian, and 30% are combatants. However we know a large number of adult men killed in Gaza or not combatants, e.g. they are journalists, UN workers, poets, university professors, etc. So 66% civilians seems very likely to be a huge underestimate.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#410
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am so deeply disappointed in the Biden administration here. What do you expect him to do? With or without any assistance, Israel has more than enough weapons completely annihilate Gaza. Don't forget that they likely have nuclear capabilities. Israel believes they are demonstrating restraint and this restraint is the first thing to go if Israel feels like it's being backed into a corner.

>> Israel believes they are demonstrating restraint From the section of the ICJ ruling dealing with dehumanizing language used by Israeli officials: > "I have released all restraints . . . You saw what we are fighting against. We are fighting human animals" -- Mr Yoav Gallant, Defence Minister of Israel

Ok but they haven't literally released all restraints because no nuclear weapons have been used.
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