"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem • Hacker News Board

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#181

Post by eli_awry » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:06 PM UTC

gte910h wrote: post #157

eli_awry wrote: post #22

This problem starts early, too - in my undergrad institution, many of the lectures and programming assignments taught OOP with examples employing beer and women-as-objects-of-seduction. The lecturers - not just TAs, but also adjuncts - would go out drinking with guys in the class from their old frats while ( I was alerted ) speculating as to how I got into Algorithms by sleeping with the professor. TAs discussed with…

Where is this? I went to college at a place where while there are 50/50 in the freshmen class, by graduation it's more 75/25 men women (I'm talking the whole school). I have never seen this sort of behavior and was TA as well as a student. What campus did you see this at?

University of Maryland, Baltimore County.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#182

Post by asciilifeform » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:07 PM UTC

rada wrote: post #159

asciilifeform wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you see any evidence that the rank-and-file software developer lives on the far-right-edge of the bell curve? Software developers are largely male for the same reason that construction crews and prisoners are - rather than the reason Nobel Prize winners in Physics are. What, if anything, there is to be gained by encouraging women to join men in wasting their lives away in the IT salt mines, is another question ent…

What, if anything, there is to be gained by encouraging women to join men in wasting their lives away in the IT salt mines, is another question entirely. You make more than your peers and your boss. It takes a couple days to land multiple job offers, in any economy, all you have to do is stop saying no. The work is intellectually gratifying and the results are immediately visible. You are largely immune from corporat…

> How can you be stuck in the salt mines...

> The work is intellectually gratifying

Most likely, this is where we differ.

The only programming work that I find truly gratifying happens to be my 100%-non-monetizable life project. (http://www.loper-os.org) Everything else is just a way to pay the bills. That is to say, salt mine labor.

In order to eat and pay rent, I burn my prime waking hours working on things other than my life project. I understand that, given our present social structure, this is unavoidable. But I don't have to pretend to like it. I suppose this makes me a "bad prostitute," rather than a "good" one.

Programming sucks. So I am not particularly upset that there aren't more women doing the work, just as the lack of female coal miners is likewise not a cruel injustice.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#183

Post by droithomme » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:08 PM UTC

MBlume wrote: post #156

droithomme wrote: post #130

All right, let me get this straight. So this guy gives a speech criticizing gang bang interviews, and people walked out because they don't like the term "gang bang". Or is it because they are so addicted to gang bang interviews that they aren't willing to give them up and are offended by anyone criticizing the practice. I also despise gang bang interviews. There is no advantage to them and they should be stopped. I a…

I really hope you're just trolling, I hope no one here is actually this obtuse. But just in case... Referring to them as "gang bang interviews": * implies an equivalence between having several people take it in turns to overpower and rape you, and having several people take it in turns to ask you questions * brings up the topic of rape in a context where people are expected to laugh * brings up the topic of rape for…

Not trolling and I take exception to the implication that my point is so worthless.

There are many parallels. As you point out the interviewee cornered in a room and find themselves attacked by one person after another. Most of the interviewers have the agenda to discredit and intimidate the interviewers whose looks or ethnicity they just don't like. If the person "looks cool" though then they go easy. It's hostile and confrontational and the interviewer is expected to take the abuse and not fight back or they are not demonstrating teamwork, where teamwork in many of these companies means being a passive beta that accepts abuse. Very different from talking one on one and having a chance to document one's competency.

Gang bang interviews are a form of violence, they are wrong, and they should be stopped. No one should defend gang bang interviews in tech. Or in any other fields, but gang bang interviews are prevalent in tech mostly, I've never seen the practice in any other field.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#184

Post by MartinCron » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:09 PM UTC

yalurker wrote: post #88

eli_awry wrote: post #22

This problem starts early, too - in my undergrad institution, many of the lectures and programming assignments taught OOP with examples employing beer and women-as-objects-of-seduction. The lecturers - not just TAs, but also adjuncts - would go out drinking with guys in the class from their old frats while ( I was alerted ) speculating as to how I got into Algorithms by sleeping with the professor. TAs discussed with…

Account created 45 minutes ago, to post a wildly unlikely and almost certainly embellished if not entirely fictitious anecdote. What is it about sexism on HN that brings out every troll, sock puppet, white knight, astroturfer, and any other internet message board cliche? The most sexist thing I've ever heard in a decade of real world work and interactions in the software industry can't hold a candle to what anonymous…

Or it could be a real thing, that is common but not absolutely pervasive. I never SEE all sorts of problems that I care about (murders, rapes, etc) but I don't assume all reports are bogus.

Nothing in the post above sounds unbelievable to me.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#185

Post by Alex3917 » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:12 PM UTC

ghurlman wrote: post #121

Alex3917 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With teaching, there have been laws aimed at preventing men from teaching for well over 100 years now. That's why the vast majority of elementary school teachers are women. In the era of modern American schooling, there has never been a period where women were not dominant. I suppose you could make an argument that historically most itinerant teachers were probably men, but this really seems like a very different job…

[citation needed] Please? I'm curious if this is local to you, or a more widespread thing.

Not sure if it applies to other countries outside America. I don't have a cite offhand unfortunately, you'd have to read some books about the history of education in America.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#186

Post by eli_awry » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:13 PM UTC

yalurker wrote: post #88

eli_awry wrote: post #22

This problem starts early, too - in my undergrad institution, many of the lectures and programming assignments taught OOP with examples employing beer and women-as-objects-of-seduction. The lecturers - not just TAs, but also adjuncts - would go out drinking with guys in the class from their old frats while ( I was alerted ) speculating as to how I got into Algorithms by sleeping with the professor. TAs discussed with…

Account created 45 minutes ago, to post a wildly unlikely and almost certainly embellished if not entirely fictitious anecdote. What is it about sexism on HN that brings out every troll, sock puppet, white knight, astroturfer, and any other internet message board cliche? The most sexist thing I've ever heard in a decade of real world work and interactions in the software industry can't hold a candle to what anonymous…

Yeah, I did create this account because this is an issue very dear to my heart.

I blogged about some of this when it happened about a year ago on livejournal, and that post made it to the front page of hn back then. I've experienced a lot of bullshit from brogrammer types. Of course, sometimes there's no bullshit. Some of my fellow CS grad students are awesome to work with. I'm dating one, and he's a champ. Others have 'calendar girls' up at their offices, or make lame jokes like "Do you taste pineapple? That's funny, cause I've been eating it all week." (Which is an oral sex joke, kids). When people gossiped that I'd been sleeping with the Algorithms prof (who was like 65) because I got into the class without taking the prerequisites, other guys came to my defense. There's good and there's bad, and it's certainly not all bad. But some people are really, really awful, even in the real world.

Edit: And to be fair, I go out to the bar on Fridays with my coworkers (fellow grad students), which is where some of these things happen. At my undergrad institution, some of this happened while bowling on our weekly bowling night. Most of this stuff didn't happen at work - it happens at events that are guy programmers and me. If I had kept in social circles outside of my field and only interacted with these people in a professional setting, and never ever networked, I would have been fine.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#187

Post by 127 » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:13 PM UTC

anichan wrote: post #119

127 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying to build a narrative that it's men stopping women from participating in software development. I find that problematic and harmful. Where is your proof, other than pure conjecture? My own conjecture is that women don't want to do software development because it's boring and difficult. I'm sure they could if they wanted to, they just do not. With a few notable exceptions to the rule.

It might not be the primary reason but it certainly doesn't help. Back in high school, I was really excited to join the robotics team and I really had a passion for it but I only stayed in it for a year before quitting. I was the only girl on the team and the attitude people took with me was infuriating. It felt like such a boy's club. Sure, you can just pass it off as "boys will be boys", high school boys are stupid…

Thanks, it is interesting to hear from personal experience what it is like.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#188

Post by rmc » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:15 PM UTC

ebbv wrote: post #30

Not that fucking Siri canard again. It was debunked repeatedly. The reason Planned Parenthood wasn't being found by the person's query is they were looking for "abortion provider" or something along those lines and Planned Parenthood wasn't listing itself under those terms. It had NOTHING to do with sexism on the part of the developers. Shame on the author.

I don't know of the specifics, bit I would have also assumed that since abortion is a slightly controversial issue now, that Apple blocked it. They don't want porn on app store, so I assumed that they blocked abortion providers aswell.

The other reason I find this "siri sexism" theory hard to believe is how the OP phrased the complaint. "... the male programmers didnt think to include abortion ...". Does the OP really think that everything in Siri is hand entered? That a bunch of (men) sat around and wrote out everything that Siri could be asked? The OP knows about search engines right?!

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#189

Post by Dove » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:15 PM UTC

pharrington wrote: post #91

lotharbot wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis" Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. There are also social problems that contribute. But the gender ratio would not be 50-50 even in a completely egalitarian society. Women like my wife [0] are rare, partly because of "brogrammers" chasing them off, but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested…

"Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry." Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. Until we can do this, essentially saying "physiology affects your organs" is a pretty empty statement.

Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer.

I'm not sure I can be quite that specific, but there are some very well-established differences in the way men and women think, and the way the respond to stress. See here:

http://bible.org/seriespage/biological-basis-gender-specific... [1]

. . . particularly sections V and VII.

I wouldn't go so far as to say we know how gender affects brain chemistry specifically as it refers to programming, only that we know it does affect how we think, process information, and handle stress. And those things seem like they would be relevant. Don't they?

That is to say, I wouldn't say I know ALL of the differences between us are innate, only that I find it plausible that a lot of them are. And that I'm hesitant to treat statistically underrepresented women as necessarily a problem.

[1] You'll have to excuse the bible.org reference; the christian academic community seems to be about the only one in which one can have a serious conversation about innate differences between the genders without getting immediately taken out and shot. You have my assurance that the discussion in the article is interesting and scientific, and comes with copious footnotes to mainstream sources.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#190

Post by jgn » Thu, Apr 26, 2012, 6:16 PM UTC

I've been a "nice guy" my whole life, and sometimes it's socially detrimental (read: being too nice to girls that were hoping I'd be more than nice). At some level, I find the idea of brogramming attractive. Yes, I said it, and I know how awful that is. But consider that some very nerdy, possibly more insecure guys could look at this culture and decide they want to be part of it. They get to maintain their nerdiness and love of coding while making social changes that elevate them, at least in their mind.

I've never wanted to join a frat because they all seemed like idiots, but I can't say I haven't been jealous of them for the girls that seem to hang around.

All that being said, do you understand what I'm getting at? No, I don't wish for hipster sunglasses and drunken weekends. I am what I am, and typically that means I'm too shy and/or nice to girls for my own good. But at some level, the brogrammer culture looks cool to a guy like me.

I hope that makes sense and adds something to this discussion, it seems like most people are a bit older here and only approach it from that perspective.