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"Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

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Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#91

Post by pharrington »

lotharbot wrote: post #56
dsr_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too…

> "Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis" Brain chemistry is relevant to logical analysis. Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry. There are also social problems that contribute. But the gender ratio would not be 50-50 even in a completely egalitarian society. Women like my wife [0] are rare, partly because of "brogrammers" chasing them off, but also because a smaller proportion of women are interested…

"Gender has significant effects on brain chemistry."

Quantify how sex affects the brain in specific ways that effect the likelihood of developing an interesting in programming and being an effective programmer. Until we can do this, essentially saying "physiology affects your organs" is a pretty empty statement.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#92

Post by stcredzero »

aidenn0 wrote: post #54
dsr_ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dare to guess that women are underrepresented among developers PRECISELY because of this culture and the underlying assumptions and attitudes. Gender is irrelevant to logical analysis, which is the foundation of programming. If you don't have parity in your pool of candidates, there's a cause, and it's probably social. Nursing and teaching used to be men's work. Women weren't thought to be capable of it. Too…

Yes there is a problem this is obvious. However... as long as women make up such a tiny minority of CS graduates there is no short-term financial incentive for companies to not just market directly to men. For example, if a certain recruiting tactic would double the number of qualified male applicants, but halve the number of qualified female applicants, it is clearly a short-term gain for a company. That's why the s…

Yes there is a problem this is obvious. However... as long as women make up such a tiny minority of CS graduates there is no short-term financial incentive for companies to not just market directly to men.

Many commenters on this site, pg included, have noted that the economics of hiring are rationally biased to false negatives. This makes sense, because the price of false positives is so high. Unfortunately, this tends to accentuate societal factors, such as prejudice.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#93

Post by [deleted] »

fab13n wrote: post #18

> To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity. This is very PC, but BS nonetheless. At the stage when people can be profitably hired by start-ups, the male/female ratio is nowhere near 50% among technical candidates. I'm not saying that frat culture isn't harmful, nor would I dare to guess why women are underrepresented among development professionals; but defending a thesis with such grossly false asser…

[deleted]

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#94

Post by EvilTerran »

theorique wrote: post #41
dipthegeezer wrote: post #27

Well you still have job adverts from big boys like twitter saying 'responsible enjoyment of beer' as a prerequisite. https://twitter.com/jobs/positions?jvi=ooE7VfwO,Job If that's not appealing to the frat boy crowd then I don't know what is. Not to mention the fact that a lot of people don't actually drink ( I know hard to believe! ), or have a life that doesn't involve drinking all the time. As someone who's been th…

There's a radical difference between a grown up workplace that sips a couple of high quality microbrews at Friday happy hour (my most recent workplace), and a frat house doing keg stands. And there's a lot of room in between the extremes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a social culture that enjoys a few beers after a hard day of work. On the contrary, it builds bonds between co-workers and leads to better wor…

"a grown up workplace that sips a couple of high quality microbrews at Friday happy hour" is exactly what I think of when I see the phrase "responsible enjoyment of beer".

"The frat boy crowd" approach is completely different -- irresponsible enjoyment of being drunk; the beer is incidental.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#95

Post by christkv »

joejohnson wrote: post #7

Good, I'm glad people walked out of Van Horn's talk. That's the appropriate response to this sort of immature bullshit. This may sound extreme, but if you're surrounded by douche bags who make misogynistic jokes and weave rude and immature anecdotes into a work-related presentation, then these "brogrammers" must believe that this behavior is acceptable. And if you witness this, and laugh along (or even just ignore it…

I think if you even go to a presentation called "Adding Value as a Non-Technical No Talent Ass-Clown." you've got yourself to blame when it turns out to be an ass-clown speaking out off his ass.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#96

Post by codesuela »

burgerbrain wrote: post #51
codesuela wrote: post #25

I find this whole brogrammer phenomenon ridiculous. It seems that it was a joke but now people start taking this stuff serious. I feel really embarrassed for people who describe themselves as brogrammers

I am not so quick to blame the people who call themselves that. Sure, some 'brogrammers' are sexist pigs who lack self awareness, but I get a strong feeling that the majority of them are just regular smoes who are looking to avoid the alternative programmer stereotype that is thrust upon them by society at large: 'doesn't shower, and likes science fiction a bit too much'.

yes I get that but how about going to gym, being groomed and well dressed and well versed WITHOUT conforming to the Bro stereotype, you know...like a INDIVIDUAL

It's not like you have the choice between being a BROgrammer or a PROgrammer. You can also be an Software Engineer that doesn't conform to either stereotypes or "subcultures" if you would call it that. People who call themselves brogrammes seem to lack the creativity to adopt a personal style that combines the best of both worlds: a smart, well dressed individual that enjoys working out without making a big fuss about it.

/rant

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#98

Post by stcredzero »

moron wrote: post #8
debacle wrote: post #4

I didn't realize this was such a big problem. I don't think I've ever met a brogrammer outside of the Internet.

> I don't think I've ever met a brogrammer outside of the Internet. Precisely.

Nerds don't have to bro to make women want to go.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#99

Post by ceol »

skore wrote: post #80
ceol wrote: post #61

> At the startup-focused Grow Conference in 2011, his presentation included bikini-girl images from his calendar. He prefaced the slides with a laughing, "I'm sorry for being sexist. I apologize in advance," I read this a lot on reddit. Someone will preface their comment with "I'm going to hell for this" or "Apologies in advance" as if that's supposed to excuse it. I get the feeling it's because these people don't se…

I agree with you to a degree, but you simply can't put it as strong as you did. It is absolutely possible to make a joke that is understood as sexist without being one yourself. That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by. Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend…

> That's actually the schtick that a lot of comedians go by.

Would you agree there's a difference between a comedian telling a sexist joke and a respected speaker at a tech conference telling a sexist joke?

> Prefacing your comment with "I'm going to hell for this" is perfectly fine and in most cases, it does show that the person truly understands they're making a comment that could offend others.

However, they didn't stop from making the comment, so I'd say it's even worse: They know what they said is offensive but don't care.

> Filtering your output because of others and your true conviction are two different things and you're not doing anybody a favor by forcing a causality here.

I'm not forcing any causality. If you tell sexist jokes, it's not a stretch for people to assume you're sexist. But all too often we don't; we write it off as "just a joke" because the person did a slight nod to their offensiveness. Instead, we should take it the other way and stop excusing this behavior. It does nothing but alienate women.

Re: "Gangbang Interviews" and "Bikini Shots": Silicon Valley’s Brogrammer Problem

#100

Post by koeselitz »

stfu wrote: post #14

These "I'm shocked, outraged, sick to my stomach." postings make me always a bit uncomfortable. It seems to me that there are two ways one can approach this subject. On to proclaim that these are intentional acts of portraying females in a negative light and keeping them out of the tech industry. The other, that these are just a bunch of nerds, trying (and in large parts failing) to make coding something "oool" or a…

This article specifically addresses whether these are intentional acts on the second page, and actually states clearly that they generally aren't:

"The most telling aspect of these incidents, says veteran Seattle developer Christy Nicol, is that none of the company leaders involved appeared to realize initially that they'd done something wrong. They had simply crafted messages aimed at young men, apparently assuming: Who else would be drawn to programming jobs?"

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