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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#251

Post by Ekaros »

Yodel0914 wrote: post #64
zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

Anecdotally, we have laminate benchtops which have been in place for ~30 years (long before we bought the house) and they're pretty much flawless, despite being treated pretty roughly. We're having the kitchen re-done soon and will go with laminate again.

Never had issues with laminate, apart from maybe single discoloration patch due to marinate. But that is life. There might be some tiny nicks, but they really aren't that visible.

Just live if with after few years. Nothing stays perfect when you use it.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#252

Post by anon-sre-srm »

amluto wrote: post #145
oooyay wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tooling and PPE are part of the problem but not all of it. People who clean up job sites are also getting sick: > "We actually not only saw people who were directly cutting and grinding the stone, but we saw people who were just sweeping up the work site after the stone had been cut," says Rose. "They were exposed to the silica particles that were suspended in the air just with housekeeping duties." So, basically eve…

Contractors with brooms are a huge pet peeve of mine at a construction site. Seriously, WTF? You take all the dust and re-suspend as much of it as possible into the air? Every construction site should have a HEPA-filtered vacuum with a filter bag. (The bagless kind is to be reserved for special cases that need it, and people should wear respirators when emptying it, TYVM.). Brooms are for non-vacuumable debris only,…

Keeping dust down with water sprayers should be a thing. Also, there should be particulate counters and VOC sensors all around sites to indicate what level of PPE is non-obvious but needed.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#253

Post by billy99k »

tomlockwood wrote: post #220
quickthrower2 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are software devs who join unions getting paid more than those who do the classic either: (a) 2 year hops or (b) find a company that gives good rises to take you above market rate.

The good news is you can do both of those things and still be a member of a union! And additionally, there's lots of evidence to suggest that union members get paid more https://www.australianunions.org.au/factsheet/union-members-... Union penetration is decidedly low in tech, and tech companies coincidentally have some of the highest cash reserves of any industry. People in tech often think, why should I join my uni…

"Union penetration is decidedly low in tech, and tech companies coincidentally have some of the highest cash reserves of any industry. People in tech often think, why should I join my union, I already get paid a lot! Bosses love that attitude."

If unions are anything like they are in the US, you lose your individual bargaining power in favor of the collective. IE: if you want a raise as a software developer, everyone at your level will also need to get a raise.

In addition to this, you end up paying the unions a tax in the form of dues, like a small government and you are forced to strike (like the UAW), even when you are satisfied with your current position/salary.

I can negotiate my own salary with any employer and I am normally well compensated. A union will not help me and will only hinder my future success.

Unions are normally for people that have lower-skilled jobs that can easily be replaced by the thousands of other people that can do the same thing (hence, having no individual negotiating power and needing someone to protect them).

This generally doesn't apply to people in the tech industry.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#254

Post by billy99k »

tomlockwood wrote: post #247
quickthrower2 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I am the only one at my company who is in a union, how does the union help me negotiate more salary? Or does it rely on enough people at my company joining?

If unions have the funding to advocate for higher wages, even at other companies, wages in the industry will rise to remain competitive. Additionally unions can offer you support in workplace disputes, and so function as a kind of legal employment insurance, even when density in your workplace is low.

Wages in the US tech industry are some of the most competitive in the world.

"Additionally unions can offer you support in workplace disputes,"

It also makes it really difficult to fire bad/incompetent workers.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#255

Post by xyzzy123 »

ezzaf wrote: post #49
legitster wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products de…

Worse in one specific regard, yes. And they agree with you in their conclusion, saying dust during processing is likely a factor. You can see the full study here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14625 > In conclusion, this study is the most comprehensive assessment of the physico-chemical characteristics of dusts generated from a wide range of resin-based engineered stones (of high- and reduced-silic…

Do you know if they ruled out the resins used to bind stuff together?

In theory perfectly cured resins are supposed to be non-toxic (eg food safe) but you can get sensitised to specific mixes or accelerants and sometimes the curing isn't perfect...

EDIT: It looks like they considered it but didn't come to any firm conclusions, further research needed etc.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#256

Post by thedays »

drivebyadvice wrote: post #226
stephen_g wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

The talk in the trade is that asbestos is way overblown and it mostly affected people installing it in ships for the Navy. They worked in tight spaces with lots of asbestos in the air, lining the ship and its pipes with it, all day every day. I don't know how true that is but I've heard the same exact story from several different contractors. I do know that getting those linoleum/asbestos floor tiles ripped up will c…

Many people underestimate the risks from asbestos as the disease can take 20-40 years to develop after exposure but it shouldn’t be underestimated.

Asbestosis killed over 3,600 people in 2015. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestosis

Asbestos has affected all sorts or people, not just in the Navy. A close relative of mine who was a plumber has been diagnosed with it and it is an awful disease.

This woman is dying from cancer caused by inhaling asbestos dust while washing her husband's work clothes. https://www.thompsonstradeunion.law/news/news-releases/asbes...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#257

Post by alexjurkiewicz »

chihuahua wrote: post #224
BonoboIO wrote: post #75

Engineered stone ... why did the article not explain what is in detail?

In the U.S., Corian is a popular brand of engineered stone. Pretty common for kitchens and bathrooms.

Corian isn't engineered stone under the Australian definition. It's explicitly mentioned as a safe(r) alternative.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#258

Post by Ekaros »

Is this stuff really so loved that we absolutely must have it, even if we aren't entirely sure what in it causes these effects?

Is there really absolutely no other options available? That is we will now go hungry as there is no more tables in world to prepare our food on...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#259

Post by rob74 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #235
fourthark wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You implicitly lay responsibility on the worker first, then on the employer, then on the customer. Perhaps if the order of responsibility were reversed, it would lead to better outcomes.

It would be ridiculous to have any responsibility on the customer. The only feasible order is government, employer, then worker. The government is tasked with the making the rules and surprise inspections, and the rest follows from there.

Well, the customer also has a lot of power. They can decide to hire a company (if available of course) that encourages/forces their workers to use PPE, even if it's a little more expensive (and maybe also takes longer) instead of just going for the lowest bidder...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#260

Post by bozhark »

paxys wrote: post #215
stephen_g wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

Sadly that's just the culture. I've seen apprentices laughed at by old timers and called pussies because they were taking basic precautions and wearing PPE. And then to fit in they themselves took on that same attitude.

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