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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#171

Post by adolph »

unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

> One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+)

> So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"?

It isn’t a good idea to assume linear effects, especially with biology.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#172

Post by sellmesoap »

insaneirish wrote: post #156
sellmesoap wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a job site with square drywall and I'll show you a perfect fitting countertop:) The material is mostly cut with a diamond saw with a water jet to keep the dust down. But if an adjustment is needed there is often some cutting and polishing on site.

But that's the point of templating. It's not a rectangular slab. It's a polygon to accommodate for inconsistencies and should be scribed to the back wall. And even if something is off, the drywall should be gouged to make the slab fit, rather than stone being cut onsite.

We do scribe the drywall at times, it depends on what's off, by how much and in relation to what. Can't scribe into a cabinet side, and mistakes happen. Even the sink cutouts are cut dry at the shop, so there's a ton of dust exposure for sure. The trades are a messy business. And 'get er done' usually comes before PPE in most trades even now that we have a better idea of what's bad for us, it's a temporary job for me. The slabs are sometimes 500lbs so I can skip the gym at least.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#173

Post by kelnos »

oooyay wrote: post #132
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

Tooling and PPE are part of the problem but not all of it. People who clean up job sites are also getting sick: > "We actually not only saw people who were directly cutting and grinding the stone, but we saw people who were just sweeping up the work site after the stone had been cut," says Rose. "They were exposed to the silica particles that were suspended in the air just with housekeeping duties." So, basically eve…

> a lot people don't like wearing respirators.

Uh... tough shit? If you'll most likely get an often-fatal respiratory disease from not wearing your respirator, and you still don't wear your respirator, maybe that's just Darwin in action there.

Banning the entire thing is just dumb, assuming there are actually PPE and mitigations that will keep people healthy. If people don't follow the safety rules, they should be fired. If companies don't implement the safety rules, they should be fined a significant portion of their revenue.

If following the safety practices means it costs more to do a particular thing, then the people paying for that thing should pay more.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#174

Post by ethbr1 »

wolverine876 wrote: post #160
schneems wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with “always wear a p100” is that they’re not comfortable in an unventilated uncooled house which is where a lot of construction happens. If everyone is wearing one you also need to take more breaks which eats into time to do the job. The industry is set up so you only get paid for doing the job. If doing it unsafely means doing it faster or being more comfortable then a lot of small time contractors will…

> The problem with “always wear a p100” is that they’re not comfortable in an unventilated uncooled house which is where a lot of construction happens. If everyone is wearing one you also need to take more breaks which eats into time to do the job. Also, solutions that require people to consistently do uncomfortable things are not realistic; we know they will fail to comply - just like we would - and they will get si…

Also, they come up with post-hoc rationalizations that justify them not doing the uncomfortable thing.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#175

Post by lathiat »

shiroiuma wrote: post #122
lathiat wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was considered but the problem is it’s very difficult to enforce in practice The product is generally installed onsite in a fast paced building industry that doesn’t have time/room to do it properly and often no supervision (1-2 often independent trades doing the installs) to ensure the appropriate measures are actually taken. The risk has already been known for a while and in practice still lots of “YOLO” onsit…

Why not just make employers fully responsible in case any of their workers develop silicosis?

The building industry in Australia is filled almost entirely with independent contractors. Mostly single people, working on a contract to the house builder/project manager. So there is little room for that.

But I agree, this would be good.

But I think the decision here is basically that, in practice, it's very difficult to actually get people to follow the required practices, in practice. As has been shown in practice.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#176

Post by mattmaroon »

defrost wrote: post #133
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. > I really don't get it. Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery). After engineere…

OK, fair, and tragic, but is the only solution banning it entirely? What about requiring PPE?

There are a whole lot of jobs that are safe when done properly and unsafe, when not done properly. It seems as if they are punishing an entire industry for not knowing what they didn’t know.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#177

Post by Turskarama »

schneems wrote: post #153
oooyay wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tooling and PPE are part of the problem but not all of it. People who clean up job sites are also getting sick: > "We actually not only saw people who were directly cutting and grinding the stone, but we saw people who were just sweeping up the work site after the stone had been cut," says Rose. "They were exposed to the silica particles that were suspended in the air just with housekeeping duties." So, basically eve…

The problem with “always wear a p100” is that they’re not comfortable in an unventilated uncooled house which is where a lot of construction happens. If everyone is wearing one you also need to take more breaks which eats into time to do the job. The industry is set up so you only get paid for doing the job. If doing it unsafely means doing it faster or being more comfortable then a lot of small time contractors will…

You make it illegal to do the wrong thing and have surprise audits. Losing your license is a pretty strong motivator to do it properly.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#178

Post by stephen_g »

unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his clothes and hair. How many times had he done it completely unprotected at other people’s houses without even thinking? (Australian houses often contain AC sheeting in houses built between the 50s to the 80s)

With silica it’s a similar story, we were moving in to an older office block that again had asbestos in the ceiling tiles, and I was wearing a respirator because again electricians had drilled it in a bunch of places (inside this time, ended up going through very expensive decontamination a couple of days later including ripping out and replacing half of the brand new carpet). Anyway, I was in the server room where an air-conditioner guy was installing a split system unit, and he asked me about it and I told him what was happened. He then said something like “Oh yeah, I definitely should have been more careful with that kind of stuff when I was a young fella”, and then proceeds to start drilling through the double brick wall (to install the piping to the outdoor unit) with no mask or hearing protection… Cutting brick and concrete releases silica into the air too, most tradies just give no thought to using proper PPE…

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#179

Post by kelnos »

schneems wrote: post #153
oooyay wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tooling and PPE are part of the problem but not all of it. People who clean up job sites are also getting sick: > "We actually not only saw people who were directly cutting and grinding the stone, but we saw people who were just sweeping up the work site after the stone had been cut," says Rose. "They were exposed to the silica particles that were suspended in the air just with housekeeping duties." So, basically eve…

The problem with “always wear a p100” is that they’re not comfortable in an unventilated uncooled house which is where a lot of construction happens. If everyone is wearing one you also need to take more breaks which eats into time to do the job. The industry is set up so you only get paid for doing the job. If doing it unsafely means doing it faster or being more comfortable then a lot of small time contractors will…

I mean, if we can't incentivize doing the right thing by teaching people that they'll die of a respiratory disease in their 30s if they don't wear their PPE, then honestly, that's life. If people choose to do their job in a way that gives them high risk of bad health outcomes, that's on them.

Certainly if workers are being coerced into not doing the right thing, that's a problem, and employers need to be fined into oblivion if they pull that crap.

If it's uncomfortable or takes longer to do it safely, that cost should be passed on to the person paying for the work.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#180

Post by yeeeloit »

defrost wrote: post #133
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. > I really don't get it. Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery). After engineere…

Exactly, silica is not the problem. Silica is everywhere, we don't wear PPE to drive down a dirt road.

It's the silica plus the adhesive additives combined in your lungs that does the damage.

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