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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#211

Post by killingtime74 »

unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

I mean if people break the law there's no need for the law? Speeding is illegal and kills many. The alternative, driving slower, is not perfectly safe. I guess the Germans don't criminalise speeding?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#212

Post by rgmerk »

zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

Laminate is functionally fine. There's plenty of kitchens out there with it. Just doesn't look as nice (which is really shorthand for expensive) as stone.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#213

Post by maakk »

yeeeloit wrote: post #180
defrost wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned. > I really don't get it. Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery). After engineere…

Exactly, silica is not the problem. Silica is everywhere, we don't wear PPE to drive down a dirt road. It's the silica plus the adhesive additives combined in your lungs that does the damage.

Maybe. Or it's the dose, which sounds quite high when working with engineered stone.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#214

Post by jackvalentine »

nothacking wrote: post #76

Silica is one of the most common minerals on earth. Any type of stone countertop has a potentially dangerous amount of inhaled. Just use a dust mask when cutting/grinding stone or when around people who are. If anything, synthetic countertops could (but currently is not) be made to have very low levels of silica, but people should still not be breathing them in.

Do you really think this wasn't considered?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#215

Post by paxys »

stephen_g wrote: post #178
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

It’s incredible how bad tradies are at PPE. When my solar panels were being installed on my house, the electrician was happily about to drill through asbestos cement eave lining before I stopped him, and at least made him put on a disposable P2 respirator mask I had lying around. But he still released asbestos fibres into the air and the ceiling cavity where his colleagues were working, and will have got it on his cl…

Sadly that's just the culture. I've seen apprentices laughed at by old timers and called pussies because they were taking basic precautions and wearing PPE. And then to fit in they themselves took on that same attitude.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#216

Post by [deleted] »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #199
wolverine876 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with “always wear a p100” is that they’re not comfortable in an unventilated uncooled house which is where a lot of construction happens. If everyone is wearing one you also need to take more breaks which eats into time to do the job. Also, solutions that require people to consistently do uncomfortable things are not realistic; we know they will fail to comply - just like we would - and they will get si…

The same people probably work out at the gym ironically! But covid showed that people can wear masks alot.

[deleted]

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#217

Post by paxys »

medion wrote: post #181
unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

Completely anecdotal but my father in law is a stone mason at 75 years old, working since 16 and wears zero PPE. Not even ear muffs on a large cutting machine the size of an SUV. Wears open toe sandals. Incredibly, he is insanely fit, not an ounce of hearing loss, and works full time to this day. I helped him lay a stone wall this year and I dare say he’s possibly stronger than me at almost half his age. It’s honestl…

That's just statistics. 5 out of 6 people playing Russian Roulette will be perfectly fine, and will tell you how safe it is.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#218

Post by Reason077 »

yeeeloit wrote: post #183
mattmaroon wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair, and tragic, but is the only solution banning it entirely? What about requiring PPE? There are a whole lot of jobs that are safe when done properly and unsafe, when not done properly. It seems as if they are punishing an entire industry for not knowing what they didn’t know.

Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated. The PPE available for this sort of work is just not up to the job.

Making driving 100% safe is nearly impossible, but we drive cars built to good crash standards with seatbelts, ABS, AEB, etc. People still die on the roads, but these safety features reduce risk to an acceptable level. Likewise, using decent PPE won't 100% eliminate risk, but it will greatly improve it. Just because PPE isn't 100% effective doesn't mean you shouldn't use it.

The other kind of obvious solution with engineered stone is to avoid cutting it at the installation site. If it's cut to spec at the factory in a controlled environment (surely not that difficult in this age of CAD design etc), you wouldn't be blasting dust around during installation.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#219

Post by protocolture »

unclekev wrote: post #102

I don't understand how banning it does anything to address the underlying problem of people wilfully ignoring PPE/safe working practices. One of the "Suggested safer alternatives" is Granite which can have silica content up to 45% (Engineered stone being 95%+) So instead of 2 years to develop silicosis it will instead take 4 years of working with the "safe alternatives"? All the people who were cutting engineered sto…

The Australian government has 2 levers. Tax or Ban.

Their reasons are usually bullshit, such as their Vape ban, which implies that border farce cant keep nicotine out of the country in this one specific product category.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#220

Post by tomlockwood »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #209
tomlockwood wrote: post #161

I work for one of the union organisations (the ACTU) that pushed for this ban. Software devs are notoriously anti-union. Software companies notoriously have huge cash reserves that didn't go into the pockets of those devs. Join your union. If you're in Australia you can start the process, here: https://www.australianunions.org.au/join/begin-join/#/

Are software devs who join unions getting paid more than those who do the classic either: (a) 2 year hops or (b) find a company that gives good rises to take you above market rate.

The good news is you can do both of those things and still be a member of a union! And additionally, there's lots of evidence to suggest that union members get paid more https://www.australianunions.org.au/factsheet/union-members-...

Union penetration is decidedly low in tech, and tech companies coincidentally have some of the highest cash reserves of any industry. People in tech often think, why should I join my union, I already get paid a lot! Bosses love that attitude.

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