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Australia to ban engineered stone

abc.net.au

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Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#41

Post by xhkkffbf »

archontes wrote: post #20
umvi wrote: post #17

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?

The last time I speced something like this, they wanted exact measurements and the result arrived in exactly that shape and size. So I think you're right.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#42

Post by amluto »

insaneirish wrote: post #27
archontes wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?

As far as countertops go, field cuts are rather uncommon. Laser templating works well. Holes on the other hand tend to be done in the field. But, people don't wear PPE even though it's simple and easy to do.

I’ve watched a contractor cut holes in a countertop in the field. They did it wet. I’d still wear safety glasses if I were doing this, but IIRC there was no dust.

I’ve never seen someone cut a countertop on site. They do it in a shop. (Why didn’t Australia instead ban all countertop cutting in shops that doesn’t use dustless tools?)

Hmm, I just looked it up. Home Depot sells the tool for under $30.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#43

Post by standardUser »

Freedom2 wrote: post #5

I'm not a huge fan of government overreach like this. Workers should have refused to work with the material if it were truly dangerous, and the free market would have eventually pushed engineered stone out, giving way to innovation for a better, safer material.

> the free market would have...

With the exception of vivid imaginations, there is no free market to speak of.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#44

Post by kjs3 »

Aloha wrote: post #14
acchow wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying a worker should just quit their job on the spot...? And pay for rent and food....how...?

You get it - when someone is hand to mouth, their theoretical market freedoms are pretty limited, particularly in this field when everyone else is using the same materials.

To be fair, someone who wants 'the market' to determine when people stop dying from a provably dangerous product doesn't give a steaming crap about the poors impacted.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#45

Post by donatj »

archontes wrote: post #20
umvi wrote: post #17

Seems like you should ban the manufacturing methods, not the end product. Like, if I invent a way to safely manufacture and do on-site adjustments of engineered stone, shouldn't I be rewarded by the market for it? The material itself is not harmful, just breathing the dust of it is, which can be said of a lot of things in a common household.

Do you think that folks will install it on site without cutting it?

Even if they did cut on site, is that any worse than cutting natural stone?

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#46

Post by arealaccount »

zaphirplane wrote: post #31

No arguing against the ban I have to say the alternatives from the article are significantly more expensive, not durable or silly (concrete) Anyone had luck with one of the alternatives * Natural stone * Porcelain * Laminate * Tiles * Concrete * Wood/Timber

I've had weird good luck with concrete, it was poured thick enough that the weight was causing the kitchen to sag.

The house was being sold by flippers trying to dress up a kitchen with structural mold issues, they thought concrete would be a cheap way to hide the damage.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#47

Post by dbcurtis »

gimmeThaBeet wrote: post #39

I recall seeing stuff about this in California, but I think that was more about people polishing the big slabs, this seems more about masons installing them? But really terrible stuff, I know that's who the article focuses on, but it's just intrinsically, like mostly guys in their late 20s and 30s. If they have families, the kids are gonna be young, and then their lungs are just shot. I don't remember if there was a…

Installers and the folks back in the shops that cut the slabs for a particular job. Many are young, hardworking trades with limited English trying to give their young families a better life. Very sad. They didn’t know how bad it is, and I bet the contractor that owns the shop didn’t know until recently either.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#48

Post by oooyay »

amluto wrote: post #32
geetee wrote: post #4

I don't think I've ever seen a tradesperson wearing PPE. Recent example: our neighbor had some stonework done, and these guys were just casually hanging out in clouds of cement and stone dust.

PPE is the wrong solution here. Tools that don’t produce dust are the right solution. Wet tile saws and waterjets can cut stone (and engineered stone) with essentially no dust. An angle grinder with a dust shroud and HEPA filtered extractor (total cost starts around $400) can do the same thing a regular angle grinder does but with a lot less dust. And one really can work all day in a pouch-style N95 mask. They don’t…

> PPE is the wrong solution here. Tools that don’t produce dust are the right solution.

"Essentially no dust" is not "no dust". There are no safe levels of silica that can be introduced to your lungs.

> And one really can work all day in a pouch-style N95 mask

N95 is basically the bare minimum in terms of filters. In my shop I have a shop vac with a tornado tumbler that attaches to tools for fine wood dust and a full face P-100 mask.

This is the one: https://parcilsafety.com/products/pd100-full-face-respirator

Here's the full filter list: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0128/4037/0235/files/Full_...

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#49

Post by ezzaf »

legitster wrote: post #35
ezzaf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies looking into the issue have found non silica compounds cause issues too, and its the engineering process rather than the silica that causes the problem. This is why they haven't created an exemption for low-silica products. > "It's not just about the silica, it's something specific about the engineered stone products that's causing such a significant issue in workers fabricating these products." https://www.a…

From the link: > "What we found ... was that the natural products we had in the panel of products that we assessed actually caused the biggest inflammatory response," Professor Zosky said. I'm not sure why they are saying it's the engineering. Their own study says that natural stone products are worse than the engineered products! It's probably there's a larger number of cases of silicosis from engineered products de…

Worse in one specific regard, yes. And they agree with you in their conclusion, saying dust during processing is likely a factor.

You can see the full study here:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14625

> In conclusion, this study is the most comprehensive assessment of the physico-chemical characteristics of dusts generated from a wide range of resin-based engineered stones (of high- and reduced-silica contents) and the first to assess how these characteristics relate to the lung cell response, at a scale large enough to potentially identify components of these materials that could be linked to the severity of disease among ES workers. We showed that exposure to high levels of RCS dust during ES processing is likely contributing to disease severity in this occupational group, however, other inorganic components of ES dust, in particular Co and Al, may also be strong contributors. Furthermore, some of the highest inflammatory responses recorded were observed in non-engineered stones, further supporting the view that components other than crystalline silica may be contributing to the pathogenesis of severe silicosis. The outcomes of this study have important implications for future regulation of ES products as they challenge the common view that reducing the crystalline silica alone will eliminate disease risk.

The key take-away I get from that is that it's not silica specifically, but something else about engineered stone that is making it so unsafe to work with. And that's why they are banning the whole product class.

Re: Australia to ban engineered stone

#50

Post by jszymborski »

legitster wrote: post #40
geetee wrote: post #4

I don't think I've ever seen a tradesperson wearing PPE. Recent example: our neighbor had some stonework done, and these guys were just casually hanging out in clouds of cement and stone dust.

Honestly, a huge innovation in the quality and comfort of respirators would be a massive safety revolution. If we can make earbuds comfortable enough so that people can wear them 8 hours a day, there's got to be something to do for breathing.

Duckbill N95s are pretty amazing. I've worn one for 24h+
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