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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#381

Post by raindear »

FireBeyond wrote: post #122
petertodd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's estimated that Hamas has between 30,000 and 40,000 soldiers(1), which is about 6% to 8% of Gaza's entire adult male population. There's no way of getting around it: if Israel finishes the job of eradicating Hamas, a large percentage of the Gazan population will be killed or captured, purely because so many of them are actively involved in Hamas. Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they…

> Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they still have a future. Mistakes? To be clear, before I continue further: Hamas is a terrorist organization. Hamas also has a lot of support within Palestine. Now then, scenario 1) how, realistically, do you propose that the regular non-Hamas supporting Palestinian works to eradicate Hamas? Hamas have arms. (Let's not also forget how hard right Israel…

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. There have not been tanks there since.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#382

Post by dlubarov »

enterprise_cog wrote: post #239
petertodd wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if Israel stopped killing Palestinians and normalized relations with Gaza? Israel could choose a different path. Hamas slaughtered over a thousand Jewish civilians three weeks ago. They've been continuously launching rockets into Israel since then. They have been able to do that because Israel had chosen to partially normalize relations, eg by allowing trucks to import goods into Gaza, allowing the import of c…

Oh, so if only they went back to a total lockdown of Gaza and treated it like a more maximum security prison, then this wouldn’t have happened? What if they didn’t treat it like a prison, or Palestinians like subhuman prisoners? Do you think that maybe then they wouldn’t want to go on raids and kill people? That those 1400 soldiers and civilians would still be alive?

Fighting Jews is explicit in the Hamas Charter, and elections haven't been held since 2006, so I don't think it's clear that more appeasement could have prevented any violence.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#383

Post by raindear »

culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

What would you do if an enemy army crossed the border and slaughtered 1000 men, women, children, party goers and elderly?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#384

Post by raindear »

ChumpGPT wrote: post #236

I wonder what is the tipping point for the Arab world. What is the magic number, 10k,20k,100k dead. Does it get to a point where Egypt, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon even Jordan, SA, etc start to say enough is enough. This could turn into a pretty big war, dragging in all kinds of countries. If they end up destroying all of Gaza and killing 50k and no one does anything then the Palestinians should understand they have b…

There are around 40k Hamas gunmen. So the reported numbers can get that high.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#385

Post by arp242 »

raindear wrote: post #380
arp242 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one really seems to have any idea. Israel doesn't want these people, and no one else seems to either. We can't force Israel (or anyone else) to take these people, and we can't force Israel to lift their blockage either. So they remain stuck in what's essentially the world's largest open-air prison (the entire Gaza strip is roughly the size of the Dublin metro area, but given that ~500 to 1,000 metres from the bord…

Gaza Strip borders with Egypt too.

I'm not sure what your point is?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#386

Post by petertodd »

jacquesm wrote: post #323
petertodd wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what is exactly being done about this? > And what is being done about that? Less than was being done before, now that Hamas has slaughtered over 1000 Israeli civilians, taking attention away from Israeli crimes in the West Bank. In fact, it appears that settler extremists have used this as cover to step up their crimes, murdering a bunch of West Bank Palestinians in the past few weeks. I hope you can see how pe…

> That's a win for Israel. You need to get out of the mindset that there is a 'win' to be had here. The only thing that can be achieved is for either side to lose less, winning would require turning back the clock. More massacre is just going to prolong the conflict and ultimately will make it worse, possibly much worse. > The tens of thousands of Hamas members who planned and carried out the recent massacre are mons…

> This is how you spell 'genocide'.

Ok, that's just silly. The legal definition of genocide(1) is actions, like violence, with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. The types of groups that are protected are intentionally limited. There are lots of types of groups that are clearly not protected in the legal definition of genocide.

Hamas are a group of genocidal terrorists who are both a political party - not a protected group - and a military force - also not a protected group. Hamas's founding charter called for the extermination of Jews, a protected religious group. The idea that you can't destroy a group of genocidal terrorists is ludicrous, no different to how we don't call it genocide when criminal gangs get rounded up and arrested regardless of how many gang members are involved.

It wasn't genocide when 5 million German soldiers were killed in WW2. The Nazis aren't a protected group, and it was a good thing that the Nazis were destroyed as a group. Hamas is no different.

1) https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#387

Post by _kbh_ »

culi wrote: post #199
Danidin wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Yes, let's let this terrorists who killed babies cold blooded This is a completely made up fake story that's oft repeated by the Netanyahu administration. No basis in reality And you should really learn about the history of Palestine and all the attempts at peace. Israel has occupied Palestine for decades and has murdered thousands. In 2014 alone they killed 2,300 Palestinians. 70% of those being civilians. In retu…

> This is a completely made up fake story that's oft repeated by the Netanyahu administration. No basis in reality

We have pictures of dead babies from the October raid by Hamas, this is based in reality and is not made up.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#388

Post by C6JEsQeQa5fCjE »

orionsbelt wrote: post #351
jacknews wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, and in fact they will just create more radicals, and push the existing ones to even more barbaric extremes. I'm starting to feel radical myself, and I have no connection at all to events, other than being able to spot a bully obviously about to carry out systematic barbarism in retribution.

Was the U.S. entering WW2 after Pearl Harbor just systematic barbarism in retribution?

Honest question — how else would you describe dropping a nuclear bomb each on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, cities full of civilians, causing "between 129,000 and 226,000" deaths (source: Wikipedia)? Those were not military targets.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#389

Post by UtopiaPunk »

mcpackieh wrote: post #96
culi wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have outright called for retribution When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vas…

White American Evangelicals are insane, they think it is their religious obligation to support Israel no matter what as a precondition for the resurrection of Jesus. White American Evangelicals are far more fanatical in their support of Israel than, for instance, American Jews. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-whit... https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-eva... https://www.w…

White evangelical idealogy is definitely part of why the USA does what it does (I grew up in it and can vouch it is very real), but it's not the whole thing. The democratic party doesn't depend on white evangelicals as a voting block, but most democrat politicians are still very vocal in their support for Israel (with maybe some lip service about also sending aid to Palestine).

The USA generally is unpopular in the Middle-east, but Israel is a very strong and strategic foothold in that part of the world for the USA. Likewise, Israel is also very unpopular in the region, so they welcome any resources they can get. With all that being the case, it is mutually beneficial for the two countries, especially militarily.

And lest anyone misunderstand where I'm coming from, I believe almost anything that is beneficial to USA military interests is probably bad.

Vox has a good high level summary of the history here: https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23916266/us-israel-suppor...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#390

Post by GaryNumanVevo »

petertodd wrote: post #10

> Taking Gaza completely off the grid while launching an unprecedented bombardment campaign only means something atrocious is about to happen. A war is happening of course. Communications are critical to military operations, and Hamas has been happy to use civilian infrastructure for military purposes. Of course Israel is going to destroy it all. Sure, Hamas can still use older tech like radios. But that's a huge win…

What you're referring to is called "Collective Punishment" and it's a literal war crime: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
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