Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you have a breakdown of how many civilian casualties were in the north vs. south? And how many were killed on the way? Israel denies attacking anyone on the way. There was plenty of reporting showing people moving along the main arteries that were recommended and those look clear with no debris or any other evidence of attack. I'm aware of a single incident where it was claimed Israel attacked someone evacuating a…
> Do you have a breakdown of how many civilian casualties were in the north vs. south? And how many were killed on the way? I'm not really sure what you're asking for here. The IDF isn't there yet, so they don't know numbers killed. The Palestinians do, however Israel and the US don't believe their numbers. ...so... what is it that you expect to receive?
The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
311–320 of 610 posts
Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. Both sides have elements that seem to want to drive this conflict ever forward. You end this conflict without a way to control the extremist elements on both sides, and given that Hamas has - successfully, which they shouldn't have been able to do in the first place - attacked Israel and now Israel will respond with even more violence…
> Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. NO! None of that crap. Israel isn't great as a democracy and its current government is the absolute worst possible... It's still not in the "both" camp by a mile. It is held to a higher standard than the Hamas (as it should) and it is far "cleaner" in its bombing campaign than any recent western country (sure, mostly the USA). This i…
Palestinian blood is just as red as Israeli blood.
Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
#313Earlier quoted context omitted.
Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again. Honestly, I don't know if it is or if it isn't. But what can Israel do here? Israel said the area they will target which puts its soldiers at risk. In the interest of avoiding civilian casualties. Israel already withdrew settlements from Gaza…
Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again. Yes, that's what I've been reading. Various nations do not want to welcome "temporary refugees" because they feel they've seen this before and it will not be temporary. There will be no going back if that option is accepted. I have no idea wh…
When the Oslo accord was signed and peace broke out, they started blowing up busses with suicide bombers (and coffee shops and many other things). They essentially destroyed the chance for peace, enabled the rise of Benjamin Netanyahu and moved Israel to the right. Netanyahu actually supported them and helped them financially due to a misconception that they will prevent the formation of a Palestinian state due to their extremism (yes, he really is THAT stupid).
Unfortunately, despite their leaders sitting on buckets of cash in Qatar etc. They made a very deliberate choice of burning down Israel.
They are the main reason we don't have a Palestinian state. They would literally pay with the blood of their own people due to a crazy religious interpretation. It's not about hate, it's not about revenge. They are a cancer on their own people. They are killing them and Israelis. They will burn everything down.
Unfortunately, like any cancer they're embedded deep and rooting that out is painful and almost impossible.
People don't understand this, they think that peace or ceasefire are always the best options. But there are these very rare occasions where evil must be eliminated for the sake of everyone involved.
Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Is there a list published of all the causalities and their status? Yes. By the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties And I'm not entertaining the rest of your questions.
That is not a list. Israel publishes all the names and all the details of every single casualty.
> Password-protected access for humanitarian agencies > > Click here to access
If I posted any other source you'd dismiss that too.
https://www.moh.gov.ps/portal/category/%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%a3%d8...
Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
Historically in 1948 Palestinians left their home and due to ongoing wars were never able to come back. Effectively they lost their home. They're afraid this is happening again. Yes, that's what I've been reading. Various nations do not want to welcome "temporary refugees" because they feel they've seen this before and it will not be temporary. There will be no going back if that option is accepted. I have no idea wh…
This is actually pretty simple and people keep complicating it with History. The Hamas charter is that the entirety of Israel belongs to the Palestinian and should be an Islamic state. Their roots are in the Muslim Brotherhood (from al-qaeda, ISIS fame). When the Oslo accord was signed and peace broke out, they started blowing up busses with suicide bombers (and coffee shops and many other things). They essentially d…
So perhaps it will get resolved.
Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
#316Earlier quoted context omitted.
How can Israel force Egypt to do anything? There's a border- on one side Egypt and on the other side Gaza? Israel's not there. What is true is that Israel's agreement is e.g. needed not to bomb that aid so likely that's some of the discussion going on, which is not quite the same thing. If Egypt allowed, and the UN drove aid trucks in, Israel would not bomb the UN. So aid isn't getting in because Egypt doesn't let it…
> How can Israel force Egypt to do anything? There's a border- on one side Egypt and on the other side Gaza? Israel's not there. What is true is that Israel's agreement is e.g. needed not to bomb that aid so likely that's some of the discussion going on, which is not quite the same thing. Israeli explicitly ordered a total blockage of Gaza: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/israel-announces-to... > If Egypt al…
The Rafah crossing looked pretty intact in the videos showing the aid convoys going through. We've also seen lots of videos of people waiting on the other side to exit.
Indeed Israel did announce a blockage and/or siege of Gaza. That said they can only blockade areas they control which does not include Egypt. I think they are extremely unlikely to attack aid convoys directly though they may take indirect action against them (such as attacking the roads). Most likely this is done by mutual agreement of the involved parties but this is me speculating.
Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
#317Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Yes, Hamas is committing atrocities. Yes, Israel is committing atrocities as well. NO! None of that crap. Israel isn't great as a democracy and its current government is the absolute worst possible... It's still not in the "both" camp by a mile. It is held to a higher standard than the Hamas (as it should) and it is far "cleaner" in its bombing campaign than any recent western country (sure, mostly the USA). This i…
Sorry but we will not be able to agree on that. Israel is committing atrocities, has committed countless human rights violations and has been the direct cause of the death of far more Palestinians than the reverse by an uncomfortably large factor. Ignoring that is effectively blocking any kind of solution. Palestinian blood is just as red as Israeli blood.
I have Palestinian friends and people in Gaza. I feel terrible for them.
But there's really no choice here. This is the point you're ignoring. Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. It must be removed. It would be painful and probably result in many casualties on both sides. But it has proven that it will not rest until Israel is destroyed.
No. Two wrongs don't make a right. Killing civilians while aiming at the Hamas is never "right". But letting the Hamas keep going is far worse than the alternative, it will embolden it further and it will kill far more.
Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
#318Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Then, two days later they kick a bunch of Palestinians out of their homes and bulldoze it, hand the land to a bunch of settlers. There aren't settlers in Gaza. There are in West Bank, and in the West Bank those settlers do in fact illegally and immorally force West Bank Palestinians from their land. On occasion settlers also murder them. But in Gaza the Israeli government forced all the Jews in Gaza to leave when I…
> There aren't settlers in Gaza. I didn't say the settlement was in Gaza. These things are not as disconnected as you seem to believe. > There are in West Bank, and in the West Bank those settlers do in fact illegally and immorally force West Bank Palestinians from their land. And what is exactly being done about this? > On occasion settlers also murder them. And what is being done about that? > But in Gaza the Israe…
> And what is being done about that?
Less than was being done before, now that Hamas has slaughtered over 1000 Israeli civilians, taking attention away from Israeli crimes in the West Bank. In fact, it appears that settler extremists have used this as cover to step up their crimes, murdering a bunch of West Bank Palestinians in the past few weeks.
I hope you can see how people might see this situation as a lesson that the West Bank approach of encroachment and murder _is_ in fact the correct approach, and letting Gazan's form a state was a mistake that lead to the slaughter of over 1000 Jews.
> They not only forced them to leave: they also demolished the buildings they left behind.
What is your point? Settlers were demolishing and dismantling buildings _they_ had built and owned. If anything, Israel tried to at least hand over many greenhouses intact. But Gazan's looted many of the intact ones after the handover. This is all well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaz...
> 10 years is nothing and again, this is the sort of thinking that keeps on fueling this conflict: you don't need a solution for 10 years, you need one that actually works. And killing large numbers of people rarely solves problems. If anything history should have taught us that.
10 years is a lot better than 3 years. And if Israel makes a concerted effort to destroy Hamas now, and keeps Gaza from redeveloping, the next attack by the next Hamas is likely to kill a lot less people. That's a win for Israel.
> Rabin had the right idea: de-escalate and normalize.
Much safer to attempt that after Hamas is utterly crushed. After all Israel just tried the de-escalate and normalize approach over the past few years. Hamas used that deescalation to plan and prepare for their recent attack. They've even bragged about the fact that they deceptively did that, duping Israel into thinking Hamas was focusing on their economy: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-dup...
The tens of thousands of Hamas members who planned and carried out the recent massacre are monsters. Simple as that. They need to be thoroughly wiped out.
The sort of people who rape and murder on a huge scale in cold blood are not the sort of people who are worth negotiating with. Diplomacy has its limits. Negotiating with the Nazi's proved to be a mistake. Negotiating with Hamas is no different.
Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
#319Guess which building first demolished to the ground by Israel military in Gaza at the beginning of the conflict? No price of getting the right answer, it's the Watan Tower building that hosted most of Gaza Internet Sevice Provider (ISP) companies Paltel and Jawwal and their infrastructure. It was also a hub for several international media outlets, including the Associated Press and Al Jazeera [1],[2],[3]. We are some…
It also included offices for the Hamas and was a symbol of its power. That was the main motivation for removing it.
Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When it happened in Iran the US opposed it: https://www.state.gov/joint-statement-on-internet-shutdowns- ... That's not comparable because that is not a military operation and there was no military advantage to the action. > Right now you can not call ambulances or firetrucks or anything. Not all 2M Palestinians in Gaza are combatants, but I think that some people consider them to be. I don't know what people think…
bawolff wrote: > Generally from an international law perspective, the obligation is to ensure that civilian damage is porportional to military advantage. This new report from HRW details both Hamas and Israeli war crimes: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/27/how-does-international-h... On the Israeli side (but you can read about Hamas in the report above): "Israel has also engaged in the collective punishment of Gaza’…
I fully agree the west bank is fucked up (i do not think that justifies oct 7, which on the scale of atrocities seems much worse)
As far as the blockade goes, i don't know - it seems like there might be a grey area between blocking humanitarian aid vs being required to provide it. At least personally i think blocking the water was too far, but blocking fuel seems reasonable to me, but ianal and this doesn't seem clear cut to me so id like to wait for more analysis.
> There’s also concern about Israel ordering the displacement of much of Gaza’s civilian population, which is permitted only if required for the civilians’ security or imperative military reasons. The civilian population needs to be able to return as soon as possible - permanent displacement is a crime."
Given there is a ground invasion there starting right now, in a dense urban environment "civilians’ security or imperative military reasons" criteria seems met imo. I agree its imperative they be let back when fighting is over.
In the context of this conflict, it should be noted that the Palestinian side has commited a crazy amount of war crimes over a very long time (both by hamas but also past groups). That doesn't excuse israel's misdeeds, but when only one side is held to account, it delegitamizes the whole project of international law.