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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#321

Post by teleforce »

invalidname wrote: post #296
teleforce wrote: post #287

Guess which building first demolished to the ground by Israel military in Gaza at the beginning of the conflict? No price of getting the right answer, it's the Watan Tower building that hosted most of Gaza Internet Sevice Provider (ISP) companies Paltel and Jawwal and their infrastructure. It was also a hub for several international media outlets, including the Associated Press and Al Jazeera [1],[2],[3]. We are some…

It also included offices for the Hamas and was a symbol of its power. That was the main motivation for removing it.

It seems that some people easily believe in Israel propaganda without digging the actual reasons, and how can the people know the actual reasons when the facts are all buried together with the rubbles of communication infrastructure and the main offices of reporting news agencies. It is part of international laws and basic human rights that during the war you cannot demolish communication infrastructure, churches, mosques, hospitals, news agency offices, schools, civilian homes, etc. As demonsrated in this war, the first casualty is the truth that paved the way to countless atrocities.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#322

Post by lamontcg »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #63
culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

If you think any other country with a massively more powerful army would put up with a neighbor intermittently terrorizing them and then hide behind civilians and not respond similarly, I'm not sure what to tell you. Doesn't make it right. But there's no easy way out of this. Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do...

> Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do...

My immediate response to seeing the planes hit the towers was "oh fuck, we're going to kill hundreds of thousands of people in the middle east".

And those wars didn't turn out well.

Justifying this by analogy to 9/11 doesn't cut the way that you think it does.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#323

Post by jacquesm »

petertodd wrote: post #318
jacquesm wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There aren't settlers in Gaza. I didn't say the settlement was in Gaza. These things are not as disconnected as you seem to believe. > There are in West Bank, and in the West Bank those settlers do in fact illegally and immorally force West Bank Palestinians from their land. And what is exactly being done about this? > On occasion settlers also murder them. And what is being done about that? > But in Gaza the Israe…

> And what is exactly being done about this? > And what is being done about that? Less than was being done before, now that Hamas has slaughtered over 1000 Israeli civilians, taking attention away from Israeli crimes in the West Bank. In fact, it appears that settler extremists have used this as cover to step up their crimes, murdering a bunch of West Bank Palestinians in the past few weeks. I hope you can see how pe…

> That's a win for Israel.

You need to get out of the mindset that there is a 'win' to be had here. The only thing that can be achieved is for either side to lose less, winning would require turning back the clock. More massacre is just going to prolong the conflict and ultimately will make it worse, possibly much worse.

> The tens of thousands of Hamas members who planned and carried out the recent massacre are monsters. Simple as that. They need to be thoroughly wiped out.

This is how you spell 'genocide'. To be able to solve this Israel will need to make some concessions that may well be impossible for the hard liners within Israel to accept and likewise the various Arab countries that back Hamas will have to accept that Israel - regardless of the the various historical mistakes - is there to stay.

But neither side is willing to do that and so you can look forward to a lot more blood spilled. The illusion that by perpetrating more violence this can be solved is utterly depressing.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#324

Post by bhouston »

YZF wrote: post #316
bhouston wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can Israel force Egypt to do anything? There's a border- on one side Egypt and on the other side Gaza? Israel's not there. What is true is that Israel's agreement is e.g. needed not to bomb that aid so likely that's some of the discussion going on, which is not quite the same thing. Israeli explicitly ordered a total blockage of Gaza: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/israel-announces-to... > If Egypt al…

We're not talking mass outflows of Palestinians. We're talking foreign/dual nationals we would just transit through Egypt. Why can't they leave? The Rafah crossing looked pretty intact in the videos showing the aid convoys going through. We've also seen lots of videos of people waiting on the other side to exit. Indeed Israel did announce a blockage and/or siege of Gaza. That said they can only blockade areas they co…

> We're not talking mass outflows of Palestinians. We're talking foreign/dual nationals we would just transit through Egypt. Why can't they leave?

I honestly don’t know.

With regard to the blockade it only ended once Biden told Netanyahu he had to stop it. We can keep talking about this but all articles say the same thing.

Apparently there is now Israeli checks of all goods on trucks entering via Egypt. It may be a new development but they are now there on the Egyptian side of the border.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#325

Post by bawolff »

solarpunk wrote: post #158
orionsbelt wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has given repeated warnings for the north of Gaza to evacuate south for the past two weeks while Gaza has had internet. In addition, they have dropped leaflets all over the are stating the same thing.

excuse my naivete, but if they're giving two week notice about bombings, why even waste the ordinance?

I assume israel wants to take out equipment, sieze strategic positions, look for hostages.

Like sure people can leave, hamas could leave with them, but then they wont have their big guns and hamas loses the terrain advantage.

Similarly hard to move hostages without being discovered.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#326

Post by jacquesm »

invalidname wrote: post #317
jacquesm wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but we will not be able to agree on that. Israel is committing atrocities, has committed countless human rights violations and has been the direct cause of the death of far more Palestinians than the reverse by an uncomfortably large factor. Ignoring that is effectively blocking any kind of solution. Palestinian blood is just as red as Israeli blood.

Israel did commit human rights violations. On most days I would be right there with you on that. But that's "what aboutism" in this particular case. I have Palestinian friends and people in Gaza. I feel terrible for them. But there's really no choice here. This is the point you're ignoring. Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people. It must be removed. It would be painful and probably result in many casualties on b…

> Hamas is a cancer on the Palestinian people.

You are seeing a cause, I'm seeing a symptom.

> Killing civilians while aiming at the Hamas is never "right".

Not only is it not right: it strengthens Hamas and will result in more anti-Israel sentiment in the rest of the world. "Look at what you made me do" doesn't work on that level.

> But letting the Hamas keep going is far worse than the alternative, it will embolden it further and it will kill far more.

Yes, agreed, Hamas should not be allowed to keep going. But for that to happen Israel too will need to make concessions and as long as both sides only think in terms of violence this will simply not stop. The idea that you can get rid of a terrorist organization by killing its members has been refuted many times over. Terrorist organizations disband because their cause has been invalidated and because the individual members lay down their arms. I can't recall a single terrorist organization that was forcibly erased and I'm sure you'll correct me if I am wrong about that. But all of the ones that come to mind over the last 40 years that stopped being active did so because they lost support, not because they were 'wiped out'. You kill a terrorist: another one steps into its place and the cycle will continue. And if you're lucky that's just one.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#327

Post by bawolff »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #201
solarpunk wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

excuse my naivete, but if they're giving two week notice about bombings, why even waste the ordinance?

As another person who doesn't understand what's going on, I'm seeing articles that indicate they are effectively trying to drive people out and force them to leave and move to other countries and not come back and trying to use low cost tactics like telling them to evacuate to limit actual cost as well as international pushback. And some people are saying "That's a big fat nope."

> indicate they are effectively trying to drive people out and force them to leave and move to other countries

I mean, this is obviously untrue since there is no other country they can go to. Gaza shares a border with only israel and egypt and neither is letting anyone leave (a fucked up situation for the innocents caught in the middle)

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#328

Post by YZF »

tachyons wrote: post #306
YZF wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting. That Hamas can commit a raid into Israel and then stay in Gaza with impunity because Israel is not allowed to bomb Gaza? That makes no sense. What do you propose Israel do with this "terrorist" (why the double quotes?) organization? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-t... The word genocide is used way to often in this conflict. My dictionary says "the delib…

Used double quotes because neither IDF nor Hamas are declared as terrorist organisation by UN. That doesn't the actions of these organisations though. If Israel can kill someone in Iran with targeted missile, they are capable of doing the same in Palestine as well. Instead of doing that, they are carpet bombing Palestine, and they are totally aware that only handful of "Hamas" members gets killed in their attack. The…

I would disagree that Israel is dehumanizing all Palestinians. Examples? I have heard the Hamas referred to as sub-human (I don't recall where). Unfortunately they are very human. De-humanizing is not genocide and genocide is not a reality. What it is is propaganda. But yes, Germans and Hitler did dehumanize the jews to support their genocide.

How did we get to Iran? It's easier for Israeli intelligence to operate in Iran than in Gaza. Iranians generally don't hide behind their citizens or in tunnels (that I've seen). I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to or how it is relevant.

No doubt there's huge swaths of destruction in Gaza. That said the media will show you some drone shots going over and over the same building and not show you some nearby areas that have not been hit. Israel is being somewhat selective, it's not carpet bombing. But yeah, large destruction definitely, partly to remove cover for when its forces go in. It's definitely pretty terrible. Wars are. Have you seen Mariupol?

The government of Israel has plenty of blame. But the blame for the horrific attacks on Israel lies squarely on Hamas.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#329

Post by invalidname »

teleforce wrote: post #321
invalidname wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also included offices for the Hamas and was a symbol of its power. That was the main motivation for removing it.

It seems that some people easily believe in Israel propaganda without digging the actual reasons, and how can the people know the actual reasons when the facts are all buried together with the rubbles of communication infrastructure and the main offices of reporting news agencies. It is part of international laws and basic human rights that during the war you cannot demolish communication infrastructure, churches, mo…

All of those things were bombed by other western democracies in past wars.

Maybe Israel lied about this, I don't know. But I do know the Hamas lied about many things. Just now a Hamas representative was interviewed by the BBC claiming they didn't kidnap or target civilians... Wow. The audacity of the lie is staggering.

The symbolic nature of the building doesn't appear to be a lie. Since there were many offices in the building it would make sense the Hamas has some offices there. I don't see that as a huge lie.

> during the war you cannot demolish communication infrastructure, churches, mosques, hospitals, news agency offices, schools, civilian homes, etc. As demonsrated in this war, the first casualty is the truth that paved the way to countless atrocities.

It's very evident that you didn't say synagogues... I'm guessing I know where you're coming from to this debate...

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#330

Post by nwiswell »

catlover76 wrote: post #291
nwiswell wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I entirely agree, and I feel moreover that it's the moral obligation of the United States to use our substantial foreign policy influence with Israel to compel a more humane treatment of Palestinians. Nevertheless when people point out that this is a "genocide" or that Israel is committing "war crimes" I wonder what point is actually being made. If it wasn't against international law, would that make it ok to collect…

People can make an argument that it is a genocide, and there is a reasonable defense that it is not. If, based on the facts, it doesn't seem to you like a genocide, then that's fine, but it's not like there is no rational basis for those assertions. With war crimes, I recall there being some specific evidence thereof, potentially from the UN. It was brought up during PMQs in Ireland, I think. > But that logic would'v…

> In any event, can see quite a few differences between the two situations, such as the relative power disparity between the 2 sides in the middle east, the fact that Germany had taken over or was engaged in active hostilities with...most of Europe, etc.

But this is exactly my point. The moral imperative was clear in WWII, but the same pejoratives ("war crimes", etc) would equally apply.

These terms are at best uninteresting and at worst distracting, which is what I'd originally intended to highlight with the quote referring to "genocidal language".

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