The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete • Hacker News Board

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#241

Post by petertodd » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

avtar wrote: post #228

petertodd wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been giving evacuation warnings for many days with both leaflets and the cell phone network: > Residents in Gaza reported that Israeli planes rained red leaflets on neighborhoods Saturday, urging residents to evacuate. Those with cell phones also received the message digitally, according to social media reports. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/21/idf-prepares-for-gr...

They've been giving evacuation warnings and then proceeding to bomb the very areas where people have been fleeing to... https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-atta...

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#242

Post by arp242 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #136

bluish29 wrote: post #7

Someday, people in the western countries will mourn the lives lost and wish they could help in time. Except this is the time. Not after the fact and a few remains. This is an occurring theme.

I'm mourning their lives right now, but I have no idea what I could do about any of it.

No one really seems to have any idea. Israel doesn't want these people, and no one else seems to either. We can't force Israel (or anyone else) to take these people, and we can't force Israel to lift their blockage either. So they remain stuck in what's essentially the world's largest open-air prison (the entire Gaza strip is roughly the size of the Dublin metro area, but given that ~500 to 1,000 metres from the border can de-facto result in getting shot means it's even smaller than that).

That's really the core issue, and when the smoke clears from the current episode everyone will move on to other things, and we'll be having the same discussions in several years time when a new conflict inevitably emerged. Back in the 90s there was real hope and a path forward, but we seem further away than ever from that.

The entire problem seems intractable, without a clear "just do this" solution. I'm not seeing the will for a two-state solution among the population on either side, and Hamas is not like the IRA (or Arafat) who can be satisfied with a compromise, and neither are the extremist religious Jewish nutjobs for that matter.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#243

Post by mc32 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

enterprise_cog wrote: post #229

mc32 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you see the irony, you believe one's statements, but the other, you equivocate. Above you were arguing you have to wait and see if they really actually mean it in reality.

You keep missing the fact that Israel is actually, right at this moment, following through with their words. It is reality. Hamas doing a genocide is conjecture.

One of them started this war and now want to have a time out? It's not a game of cops and robbers.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#244

Post by catlover76 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

nwiswell wrote: post #232

catlover76 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So...you're saying too bad for the people in Gaza because bad shit happened to other people before? Like, what is really the point of your comment? I don't see where the person to whom you replied said "if only Israel was like the US" or something

> Like, what is really the point of your comment Basically that what matters are international norms rather than international laws, and while Israel is plainly breaking international laws, it's less clear that they're breaking international norms.

That's a somewhat fair thing to point out, but it's also a bit thick to think that what people find so objectionable about Israel's retaliation is that it breaks international law or norms or any other such standard.

It's about the basic morality of its imposition of collective punishment on the population of Gaza, while of course its population rages incandescently on the collective punishment Hamas sought to inflict on them, and stuff like that.

Collective punishment is rarely a moral answer.

Luckily, in this thread, we seem to have no people who are deranged enough to approve of Hamas's attack. But we do have people deranged enough to approve of Israel's response and who want everyone to think that when a Palestinian is killed, it's either a lie, or just tough, just collateral damage, but that when an Israeli is killed, it justifies the killing and further dispossession of hundreds and thousands of Palestinians in recompense.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#245

Post by ovao » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:03 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #213

ovao wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you argue that the Hamas attack against Israeli non-military citizens on October 7th was an attempt by Palestinians to normalize relations?

Would it be asking too much for you to argue in good faith? That would stop the discussion from derailing. If you can't then maybe don't comment at all?

I didn’t make an argument; I posed a question to the parent.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#246

Post by nwiswell » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:03 AM UTC

catlover76 wrote: post #244

nwiswell wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like, what is really the point of your comment Basically that what matters are international norms rather than international laws, and while Israel is plainly breaking international laws, it's less clear that they're breaking international norms.

That's a somewhat fair thing to point out, but it's also a bit thick to think that what people find so objectionable about Israel's retaliation is that it breaks international law or norms or any other such standard. It's about the basic morality of its imposition of collective punishment on the population of Gaza, while of course its population rages incandescently on the collective punishment Hamas sought to inflic…

I entirely agree, and I feel moreover that it's the moral obligation of the United States to use our substantial foreign policy influence with Israel to compel a more humane treatment of Palestinians.

Nevertheless when people point out that this is a "genocide" or that Israel is committing "war crimes" I wonder what point is actually being made. If it wasn't against international law, would that make it ok to collectively punish Palestine? I certainly don't think it would.

At some level it just feels like weaponization of language, or at the very least like lazy thinking. One party is breaking laws, and breaking laws is bad, so that party is bad. But that logic would've applied to the USA in WWII, so as far as I'm concerned it's not at all elucidating.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#247

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:04 AM UTC

logicchains wrote: post #115

nwiswell wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is genocidal language where you are holding civilians accountable. The entire situation is deeply regrettable and it's hard to find any heroes here, but I feel like we forget our own history so easily. The United States, within living memory, conducted a firebombing campaign of Dresden, which had limited military value, killing over 25,000. We interned over 100,000 of our own citizens of Japanese ancestry. We…

>The United States, within living memory, conducted a firebombing campaign of Dresden, which had limited military value, killing over 25,000. We interned over 100,000 of our own citizens of Japanese ancestry. We conducted a firebombing campaign of Tokyo, killing around 100,000 civilians and leaving over a million homeless. The United States was the most powerful country by far at the time. Israel is tiny in compariso…

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#248

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:04 AM UTC

philistine wrote: post #204

anonu wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then what? Is Hamas a wart you can simply excise? And if you do, will you just be galvanizing the next generation of fighters? If so many are part of the population, it would seem so...

I believe the Israeli goal is shockingly quaint: get the government in Gaza, who is Hamas, to surrender unconditionally. Attack until the leadership of the movement is completely demoralized and gives up. Mind you I 100% disagree that it is possible. Israel is looking at a long occupation.

There are other options that are even more shockingly quaint. Effectively Gaza is being strangled, no water, no power, no aid. This can't last without mass casualties and if and when that happens the only effect it will have is to swell the ranks of Hamas even further, perpetuating the conflict.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#249

Post by ipaddr » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:04 AM UTC

culi wrote: post #83

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think any other country with a massively more powerful army would put up with a neighbor intermittently terrorizing them and then hide behind civilians and not respond similarly, I'm not sure what to tell you. Doesn't make it right. But there's no easy way out of this. Look at the US response to 9-11 to see what other countries would do...

It is Israel that has been terrorizing Palestine. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vast majority of Palestinian casualties are civilians. The vast majority of Israeli casualties are soldiers. The one country that still supports the far right genocidal N…

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#250

Post by YZF » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 2:05 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #104

mcpackieh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White American Evangelicals are insane, they think it is their religious obligation to support Israel no matter what as a precondition for the resurrection of Jesus. White American Evangelicals are far more fanatical in their support of Israel than, for instance, American Jews. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-whit... https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-eva... https://www.w…

I've noticed the same here in NL, so this isn't just limited to the USA. You're either for Israel or you're an anti-semite. The possibility that you question the validity of the way Israel deals with Palestinians (notably: the settlements, which are in my opinion an outrageous violation of human rights against the original inhabitants) while at the same time not having anything in particular against Jews is something…

I don't think this is true in general. Many people that support Israel are critical of Israeli policies in the west bank (including the US administration).

I think there's a problem when you apply different standard to Jews vs. everyone else or are parroting some narrative that has anti-semitic aspects to it.

For example, I would call people contesting the right of Israel to exist, despite many generations of Israelis living in that area, despite the UN's recognition of the state of Israel, and despite the historic connection of the Jewish people to that land (and there are ofcourse many non-Jewish Israelis which people tend to overlook), anti-semitic. If someone aligns themselves with this message, I would also tend to consider them anti-semitic.

I would likely agree with much of your criticism of the west bank settlements and the behaviour of the settlers there and in general that is not anti-semitic. It's not black and white- there are many lies being propagated and there is are many truths that deserve criticism. Propagating lies about jews is basically what anti-semitism is all about and it is rampant.