The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete • Hacker News Board

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#201

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:34 AM UTC

solarpunk wrote: post #158

orionsbelt wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has given repeated warnings for the north of Gaza to evacuate south for the past two weeks while Gaza has had internet. In addition, they have dropped leaflets all over the are stating the same thing.

excuse my naivete, but if they're giving two week notice about bombings, why even waste the ordinance?

As another person who doesn't understand what's going on, I'm seeing articles that indicate they are effectively trying to drive people out and force them to leave and move to other countries and not come back and trying to use low cost tactics like telling them to evacuate to limit actual cost as well as international pushback.

And some people are saying "That's a big fat nope."

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#202

Post by brucethemoose2 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:35 AM UTC

History suggests expunging determined, fortified, modern militants embedded in a civilian population never goes well. The expunger loses or gets a pyrrhic victory, even with a huge economic advantage.

Honestly, however dire the need, I don't see what Israel is thinking. If Israel, the US, Europe, China and Russia all held hands and invaded the Gaza strip together, they still probably couldn't route out Hamas.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#203

Post by catlover76 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:35 AM UTC

petertodd wrote: post #99

culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

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This is basically an insane comment. It's very clear that you just don't think Palestinians and their lives matter at all.

> It's not Israel's fault that Hamas hides among civilians. The deaths of those civilians are on Hamas, not Israel. And Israel is doing what it reasonably can to give Gazan civilians a chance to survive.

Are you really so obtuse so as to not understand how fucked this logic is and how it does a disservice to your side to behave and think this way?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#204

Post by philistine » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:36 AM UTC

anonu wrote: post #169

petertodd wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's estimated that Hamas has between 30,000 and 40,000 soldiers(1), which is about 6% to 8% of Gaza's entire adult male population. There's no way of getting around it: if Israel finishes the job of eradicating Hamas, a large percentage of the Gazan population will be killed or captured, purely because so many of them are actively involved in Hamas. Anyway, if Gazan citizens learn the lessons of their mistakes, they…

And then what? Is Hamas a wart you can simply excise? And if you do, will you just be galvanizing the next generation of fighters? If so many are part of the population, it would seem so...

I believe the Israeli goal is shockingly quaint: get the government in Gaza, who is Hamas, to surrender unconditionally. Attack until the leadership of the movement is completely demoralized and gives up.

Mind you I 100% disagree that it is possible. Israel is looking at a long occupation.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#205

Post by culi » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:36 AM UTC

bluish29 wrote: post #162

dralley wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11 By what possible metric was it not a 9/11-magnitude event? Proportionally, on a per-capita basis, this attack was to Israel the equivalent of killing 50,000 people out of the US' much larger population. And one in ten people in the US personally knew someone that was killed or wounded on 9/11. Almost certainly far higher, in Israel. And the videos of p…

Would you mind doing the calculation of what the Palestinian casualties corresponds if they were happening in the US? or this does not serve your point?

Good point. But it's a little tricky considering the vast majority of Palestinians (~7 million) are refugees that have been displaced from their homeland. So are we talking about the half a million left in Gaza or the entire diaspora?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#206

Post by pseudo0 » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:37 AM UTC

mcpackieh wrote: post #96

culi wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have outright called for retribution When Israel invaded Gaza in 2014 they killed 2,310 people. 70% were civilians. In return they lost only 67 soldiers. They also destroyed 7-10k homes and damaged 87k other homes. Between 2005-2008, 1,754 Palestinians and 117 Israelis have lost their lives due to the ongoing occupation. Between 2008-2023 2,329 more Palestinians and 308 more Israeli people lost their lives. The vas…

White American Evangelicals are insane, they think it is their religious obligation to support Israel no matter what as a precondition for the resurrection of Jesus. White American Evangelicals are far more fanatical in their support of Israel than, for instance, American Jews. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-whit... https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2005/04/15/american-eva... https://www.w…

Evangelicals vote 99% Republican, how does that explain unconditional support for Israel being the overwhelming bipartisan consensus in Washington? AIPAC and other Zionist lobbyist groups are massively influential, while equivalent pro-Palestinian groups are largely ignored. They can direct millions of dollars to primary congressmen who step out of line, or back their opponent in a swing district, and everyone knows it.

The US singleminded support of Israel has cost an incredible amount of money and political capital, but it helps congressmen and senators get reelected and lines the pockets of defense contractors, so clearly it is keeping the right people happy.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#207

Post by tachyons » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:39 AM UTC

YZF wrote: post #159

culi wrote: post #33

Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. Sure Hamas, with the help of the media framing of this as a 9/11, gave them a good Casus belli, but Israel has always been good at finding Casus bellis. When Israel again invaded Gaza in 2014, they killed 2,310 people, 70% civilians and lost 67 soldiers in return. Even more destructive was the 7-10k homes completely demolished and 87k…

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These are definitely valid criticisms against Hamas, But how does that even remotely justify Israel? How does armed gang storming your house and killing you is different than bombing? Will it be less painful death?

You want to take the claims about rape and mutilation though there weren't any proofs given till date, but doubt the number of people killed on Gaza despite all the names are published?

If your only solution to beat a "terrorist" organization is to be bigger evil than them talks about the weakness of your government, not a blanket justification to commit genocide.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#208

Post by culi » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:39 AM UTC

djaro wrote: post #189

arp242 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, historically it's been fairly accurate and reliable. Does this guarantee they're accurate today? No. Do I blindly trust anything that's being said? No. But merely "it's Hamas, therefore the figures are false" also doesn't really cut it. See e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-c...

A week ago, when Hamas dropped a rocket on THEIR OWN hospital, the "Health Ministry" said Israel killed 500 people. Despite it not being Israel, and it not killing 500 people. They are just straight up lying

Hamas did not drop a rocket on a Gazan hospital. Not even Israel said that. And the case is still under investigation. No honest person could claim there's without a doubt enough evidence to accuse a specific party

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#209

Post by YZF » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:40 AM UTC

bhouston wrote: post #134

paulvnickerson wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nearly all of the over 7k people killed in Gaza in the past few days are civilians. This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Hamas intentionally uses its civilians as shields for their military equipment. Here is a quote from Hamas's 1988 charter: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. T…

paulvnickerson wrote: > This number comes from Hamas, so I would take it with a grain of salt. Hamas intentionally uses its civilians as shields for their military equipment. Both of these statements are spreading FUD around death numbers that most people in the know believe are accurate: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/despite-bidens-dou... . It isn't a great look for you.

How can there be "most people in the know" when the Gaza strip is under the tight grip of Hamas? Israel has always published all the details of all causalities in all the conflicts, civilian and military. Hamas never did until this new list and has never broken the numbers by combatant vs. civilian. Who and how exactly verifies those numbers?

Your link even says: "International groups, even some operating in Gaza, and global media including Reuters are not able to verify the figures but reporters have seen large numbers of bodies.".

Hamas is motivated to inflate this number to make Israel look bad. You have to be incredibly naive to think they're above that. Maybe they do it a little, maybe they do it a lot.

Why are we even playing this numbers game in the first place?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#210

Post by OfSanguineFire » Sat, Oct 28, 2023, 1:40 AM UTC

petertodd wrote: post #181

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal’s devs recommend that it be installed from the Play Store, and that is what the vast majority of people do. There has been heavy speculation that certain state actors are able to push a compromised Play Store update to users of interest. Moreover, the Signal board has been overhauled recently, Moxie left, and at least one new member has a US government background. It’s possible that the organization itself has…

> There has been heavy speculation that certain state actors are able to push a compromised Play Store update to users of interest. I'm sure Hamas could figure out how to install Signal from clean APKs, or use something else entirely. They may be barbarians. But they're not stupid. People forget that Gaza isn't a particularly poor country. It's GDP per capita is on par with neighboring Egypt, and only a little less t…

> I'm sure Hamas could figure out how to install Signal from clean APKs

I think you are overestimating how technically savvy guerrilla fighters – or armies in general – typically are. Even if a handful of elites were savvy, the vast majority are going to have less knowledge and show terrible opsec. And considering that even many security researchers complain how difficult it is to ensure a secure setup for Signal or any other smartphone-based system, I wouldn’t expect Hamas to be any better.

Of course Gaza wasn’t a particularly poor country. It even has its own dev community attracting outsourcing work. But that doesn’t make opsec in this area any easier or them any more qualified than the average.