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Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

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Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#401

Post by dragontamer »

wyre wrote: post #395
CableNinja wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing density, and radius of "walkable" to the average human. I live in a neighborhood full of small apartments, single level duplexes, and single family homes. What stores are walkable? The liquor store, and gas station, and if i really feel like it, dominos and 7-11, both of which are at least 1/4 mile one way. Most others in this area, dont get those even. Past that its about a mile one way to the actual grocery…

Why not ride an e-bike that one mile to the grocery store and go more often instead of needing to haul 50lbs in one trip. Also, it’s the year 2023 it is easier than ever to get a tv delivered to your front door without you needing to haul it anywhere. I’m ready for your excuses.

> Also, it’s the year 2023 it is easier than ever to get a tv delivered to your front door without you needing to haul it anywhere.

Is it really better for the environment to double-up on all the packaging and have an even heavier truck (that has worse emissions and even worse tire-wear / microplastic creation) than the car that weighs like 1/4th the weight of the truck?

That's what I mean by the "last mile" problem. The alternative, big trucks that consolidate deliveries, isn't a clear cut win either.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#402

Post by bmitc »

TheBigSalad wrote: post #389
bmitc wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Literally nobody thinks that EV's will reduce microplastics. What are you even talking about? Not that, for starters. Is there data that proves inconclusively that electric vehicles AND the new infrastructure and mining and every other systematic thing that comes along with them and doesn't currently exist is actually (not just hopes and dreams) less impactful on the environment? Because as far as I can tell, your…

It is a fact that EVs are better for the environment and will be even more better once certain infrastructure is built out. There's no reason to shit on an improvement just because it's not a cure. The data is a quick search away if you're actually interested.

Well, I have looked, so if you don't mind pointing to data that addresses what I mentioned then that would be appreciated.

It is hard to find, but what I have found is that EVs cross over, in terms of emissions, around 6-24 months into ownership over ICE vehicles. This accounts for manufacturing to use. As far as I could tell, it does not take into account the new mining required, the new manufacturing centers, the new infrastructure, battery disposal, end of life scenarios, etc. Basically, what I've already said.

These are systems. Yes, in isolation EVs are better than ICEs. As you start to broaden the viewpoint, I think things get a loss less definitive such that the wins become a lot less impactful.

Being honest, I think the main reason that EVs have so much hype is that because people plan on making a lot of money from the lithium and other mines and selling the EVs.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#403

Post by Retric »

alwayslikethis wrote: post #377
Retric wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American style suburbs are worse for raising a family than living in a city. Long commutes practically remove one or more parents from the equation 5 days a week. Long bus rides compromise sleep and exercise etc. All for a back yard that’s rarely used and worse in just about every way than a nice park. What they are is a cheap imitation of the wealthy enclaves near cities that only work because so few people can affo…

From the perspective of the child, it's much worse. You are basically arrested until you are 16-18. No independence whatsoever. Want to meet a friend? Ask your parents to drive. They're busy? Too bad.

Parents and society can be unreasonably restrictive in any environment. People call social services on parents for letting kids walk around alone in suburbs. The freedom you can get as a young teen without a car is however vastly higher in cities due to public transportation.

Social norms also vary widely, first graders in Tokyo take public transportation to school alone. This isn’t inherently unsafe or unreasonable.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#404

Post by jeromegv »

yokem55 wrote: post #383
wizofaus wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd only add "...because they're incredibly useful, AND government policy has consistently favoured such a mode of transport over all other alternatives". The amount spent by governments on maintaining road infrastructure dwarfs all other transport spending, the amount of land dedicated to parking and driving space is mindboggling, and of course the amount spent on ensuring the global oil industry has been able to re…

You aren't wrong that government support of automotive transport is immense. But that government support comes from decades of popular electoral support for those policies from all across of the political spectrum. Why? Because cars give people more convenient and independent transportation then just about any other mode. And people push their politicians and representatives to support that kind of transportation. If…

But we also built our society to make the car more convenient. Can’t remember the ratio but the amount of parking space available per car is absolutely insane. That means a relatively cheap access to put your giant car almost anywhere you go. Most cities are built around that idea and that makes other form of transportations almost impractical.

So yes the car is convenient but we also built many things to make it more convenient. In places where subways/rapid transit are made more convenient, there’s of course less parking and less road space and naturally % of car ownership goes down

It’s a choice. It’s not naturally always based on the merit of the car.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#405

Post by bmitc »

jayd16 wrote: post #399
bmitc wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they can unless the car is not moving. The point is: the dominating sound pollution from a car is from sources that are not removed in EVs.

> not moving You mean like at a stop light or even a stop sign? A very common thing to be near in a city?

You mean when other cars are still moving?

And what is your point, in general? Engines make noise. That's not under dispute.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#406

Post by dragontamer »

CableNinja wrote: post #338
Animatronio wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd keep the cart until next time you need it.

Thats just buying a shopping cart with extra steps

Then why don't we make the shopping cart carry people and suddenly its just a car with a lot of extra steps.

Like, a car _is_ your shopping cart you take to-and-from the grocery store. It also carries you to work and does all sorts of other things.

These "crappier than a car" solutions seem to be from people who haven't really thought this through IMO.

---------

The solution is to have a store walking distance from the house, meaning you don't even take large amounts of groceries home. Why buy a lot of groceries when whatever you want is within walking distance?

When I visited Manila, Philippines, my life was like this. Fresh bread? Just walk to the corner store, no reason to take extra home with me because tomorrow morning it'd be baked fresh again. Why should I spend on 2 pan-de-sal (great tasting Filipino bread btw) for today-and-tomorrow, when I'm planning to walk to the city-corner again to well... do anything anyway? The bus is there, the food is there, breakfast is there, everything is there. Its less convenient to even take anything home outside of eggs or other longer-term goods.

But you need to live _much_ closer together than what Americans are used to. And there needs to be a reason to go "to the corner" (ex: to take the bus or other public transit). Etc. etc. etc. This simply doesn't work in American suburbia.

American City centers, such as New York or Washington DC seem to have figured it out in my experience. But prices for this lifestyle are higher than just buying a car and living in suburbia. So yeah, Americans recognize the value of this lifestyle (despite all of our debate and complaints). But there's not enough space/housing in cities to have enough people live a car-free lifestyle.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#407

Post by ip26 »

bmitc wrote: post #333
jayd16 wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment is just contrarianism, I think. I've lived in Los Angeles my whole life and the difference that clean air standards make is obvious. The black dust isn't just tire and brake dust. It's also soot and it used to be much much worse. Nothing is a silver bullet but I'll be much happier when we're done with ICE noise and exhaust.

> This sentiment is just contrarianism, I think. I really don't think it is. We're thrusting ourselves into just new problems. Yes, we move away from old problems that gas-powered cars have, but we move into new problems. For one, EVs perpetuate the idea of the car, which is perhaps the most dangerous part. Then, there's all sorts of new things like building out the infrastructure required for EVs and mining the new…

Your problem with EVs is that they don’t eliminate the idea of cars? Let me guess, your problem with the Impossible Burger is that it doesn’t eliminate the idea of eating meat?

Entangling ideology with progress is a recipe for getting nothing at all. We see this consistently in climate activism and drug activism. If you try to use a crisis (say, global warming) as a wedge to force your ideology (say, austerity) on the public, you get zero progress on said crisis.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#408

Post by maest »

owlstuffing wrote: post #254
Kirby64 wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is two different things though. Road use tax is intended to be used to pay for road maintenance and infrastructure. It's why if you live on a farm you can get tax-free diesel that is dyed red. You aren't using the road/infrastructure, so you shouldn't need to pay the tax. If the goal is to reduce tire microplastics, the tax should be specifically based on tire lifespan, which is already well known. It's called U…

>Today we tend to conflate tax… Today we conflate supplying more of our earnings to the government and solutions to problems.

Do you have a constructive alternative you would like to propose?

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#409

Post by dukeyukey »

listenallyall wrote: post #396
midasuni wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars have such a low price because the cost of them is not born by the person purchasing them.

Are there any large-scale public transportation systems that aren't reliant on huge government subsidies? London: 3.6b pounds https://www.google.com/search?q=london+tube+government+subsi... New York: $7.2 billion https://new.mta.info/budget/MTA-operating-budget-basics Amsterdam: 370m euros for 3 months service https://www.railjournal.com/financial/dutch-government-provi... . Ok, Hong Kong appears to turn a profit.

Not many, especially if you include car travel - very few roads are privately built, compared to what the government does.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#410

Post by dragontamer »

galangalalgol wrote: post #144
highwaylights wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or people just get their groceries delivered. Way more convenient, not expensive anymore (I get unlimited deliveries for a fairly paltry annual fee), and saves on journeys as the truck just loads up on lots of people’s deliveries all at once. It also scales better - if more people are having groceries delivered then each trucks stops become more closely clustered (unless the computers involved are just doing a poor j…

As the tire wear varies with the square of the weight we are comparing: 100x(car weight + grocery weight)^2 Vs (Truck weight + 100x grocery weight)^2 I couldn't find an empty weight for a box truck that could carry that much but assuming 10klbs total, and that grocery weight is negligible to the car, it looks like thebtruck is slightly better. It doesn't seem like a clear win.

> (car weight + grocery weight)^2

That's ^4 actually. Friction / Normal Force / Damage to roads is to the Fourth power law.

Yeah, the 100x lighter cars might actually be better in practice. That's what makes this last-mile problem so problematic. We're already (possibly) at the local optimum.

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