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Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

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Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#341

Post by Kirby64 »

Etheryte wrote: post #242
burkaman wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like it from a couple studies, for example: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004896972... . Vehicle weight is also a significant factor, so EVs will make this particular problem worse. Still worth the tradeoff, but obviously not using a car at all is the best option.

Are you sure about the tradeoff bit? If my memory doesn't fail me, there was an article on HN recently that covered how EVs are environmentally more friendly, but health wise worse exactly because they generate more tire particles.

I'd like to see if that included brake particulates. My understanding is brake particulates is a large contributor to the mix of 'unhealthy ultra-fine dust' from cars. Most EVs should bring down the brake dust to almost zero, since the vast majority of braking is done via regenerative braking.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#342

Post by InSteady »

valianteffort wrote: post #276
dlahoda wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV bikes sure. price and weight of good EV bike dropped for last 5 years.

I don't know where you live but everything is too far apart in American suburbs. How you would fix that without tearing it all down? And it's totally impractical for transporting a family around. Road tripping. Visiting far away family. Day at the lake or beach. Going camping. How do you convince people to give all of that up and just be content with whatever is 15min away.

Many e-bikes have 100+ mile range. In theory you could have a few backup batteries for longer trips.

You could also rent a car for the 5 or so days a year the average person is doing anything other than commuting, shopping, and other local activities.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#343

Post by wizofaus »

sokoloff wrote: post #335
bmitc wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sentiment is just contrarianism, I think. I really don't think it is. We're thrusting ourselves into just new problems. Yes, we move away from old problems that gas-powered cars have, but we move into new problems. For one, EVs perpetuate the idea of the car, which is perhaps the most dangerous part. Then, there's all sorts of new things like building out the infrastructure required for EVs and mining the new…

Cars are selling, despite their high economic price, because they're incredibly useful . Make competing modes of transit at least one of more useful at no more cost or no less utility but at a lower cost and people will switch incredibly quickly. That's a tall order, because the modern automobile is a wonder of transport speed, comfort, and convenience.

I'd only add "...because they're incredibly useful, AND government policy has consistently favoured such a mode of transport over all other alternatives". The amount spent by governments on maintaining road infrastructure dwarfs all other transport spending, the amount of land dedicated to parking and driving space is mindboggling, and of course the amount spent on ensuring the global oil industry has been able to reliably and safely deliver fuel to vehicles is beyond comprehension* (and almost certainly one of the reasons the transition to EVs will be slower than technology might otherwise allow - vested interests with billions to lose will do anything to keep their share of the spoils). Not to mention the fact that we've yet to actually start truly paying for the long term environmental and health costs of allowing our cities to be so dominated by a single mode of transport.

*) it's estimated up to 20% of the US's defence budget is spent protecting oil supplies for a start, which effectively acts as a subsidy of around 70c a gallon.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#344

Post by DarmokJalad1701 »

XorNot wrote: post #284
BowBun wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Even solar + wind - when the buzz started it was all rainbows and butterflies because we found a silver bullet to energy! There is no such thing as free lunch. If you start absorbing massive amounts of solar, you will have some effect on the environment that we have absolutely no clue about. Same with interfering with wind patterns and ocean currents, which would happen with energy generation at true humanity…

What do you think happens to solar energy which doesn't land on a solar panel currently? Say it lands on a dark coloured roof?

> What do you think happens to solar energy which doesn't land on a solar panel currently

It magically disappears from this universe of course. The photons know if it is actually being of use to sentient humans and decides to wreak havoc (in some as yet unknown fashion) only in that instance.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#345

Post by ltbarcly3 »

bmitc wrote: post #333
jayd16 wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment is just contrarianism, I think. I've lived in Los Angeles my whole life and the difference that clean air standards make is obvious. The black dust isn't just tire and brake dust. It's also soot and it used to be much much worse. Nothing is a silver bullet but I'll be much happier when we're done with ICE noise and exhaust.

> This sentiment is just contrarianism, I think. I really don't think it is. We're thrusting ourselves into just new problems. Yes, we move away from old problems that gas-powered cars have, but we move into new problems. For one, EVs perpetuate the idea of the car, which is perhaps the most dangerous part. Then, there's all sorts of new things like building out the infrastructure required for EVs and mining the new…

> It isn't contrarianism to point out that a solution is not the solution everyone thinks it is.

Literally nobody thinks that EV's will reduce microplastics. What are you even talking about?

EV's have the potential to dramatically reduce our reliance on gasoline. Current EV technology is far from perfect, but do you think people will just stop having personal transportation? Do you think it's better to keep using gasoline cars forever? So you agree that some kind of non-gasoline personal vehicle is likely to be dominant for some time as a method of personal transportation, unless you are just ignoring reality completely or think that people will magically change how they live in even more fundamental ways without incentives to do so, which is magical thinking. So EVs are inevitable, since there is no other credible alternative to gasoline personal vehicles that is even proposed, and EVs are starting to displace gas vehicles in significant numbers.

So keep shouting as much as you like about how we need to 'stop normalizing the idea of a car' but just realize that less than a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of 1% of the world will even bother to listen to it, and in the meantime we are likely to end up building several billion electric cars before another alternative comes around. If you want to change the world, develop the technology that makes it make sense to act the way you want people to act, because nothing else will persuade anybody.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#346

Post by midasuni »

sokoloff wrote: post #335
bmitc wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sentiment is just contrarianism, I think. I really don't think it is. We're thrusting ourselves into just new problems. Yes, we move away from old problems that gas-powered cars have, but we move into new problems. For one, EVs perpetuate the idea of the car, which is perhaps the most dangerous part. Then, there's all sorts of new things like building out the infrastructure required for EVs and mining the new…

Cars are selling, despite their high economic price, because they're incredibly useful . Make competing modes of transit at least one of more useful at no more cost or no less utility but at a lower cost and people will switch incredibly quickly. That's a tall order, because the modern automobile is a wonder of transport speed, comfort, and convenience.

Cars have such a low price because the cost of them is not born by the person purchasing them.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#347

Post by CalRobert »

valianteffort wrote: post #276
dlahoda wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EV bikes sure. price and weight of good EV bike dropped for last 5 years.

I don't know where you live but everything is too far apart in American suburbs. How you would fix that without tearing it all down? And it's totally impractical for transporting a family around. Road tripping. Visiting far away family. Day at the lake or beach. Going camping. How do you convince people to give all of that up and just be content with whatever is 15min away.

Cars are great for all that, and an electric cargo bike like an urban arrow is great for all the things nearby, IF you have safe infrastructure. Plenty of people have cars in my Dutch city but it's still safe to do local things by biking and walking

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#348

Post by InSteady »

estebank wrote: post #300
valianteffort wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you live but everything is too far apart in American suburbs. How you would fix that without tearing it all down? And it's totally impractical for transporting a family around. Road tripping. Visiting far away family. Day at the lake or beach. Going camping. How do you convince people to give all of that up and just be content with whatever is 15min away.

It is already a huge change if people who drive to thir offices didn't. People going camping or driving across the country aren't the problem. The Dutch do that as well, what they don't need to do is having to drive to go fetch milk or get to work. I have my dentist, grocery shop, restaurants, coffee shops, gym, bike shop, bank, park, hardware storeband bus stops within 15 minutes from my home, and all of those are i…

>wrestling some space in the commons from inefficient forms of transportation in favour of more efficient ones.

And underused parking lots. Dear god the huge, empty parking lots.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#349

Post by Kirby64 »

oatmeal1 wrote: post #319
jayd16 wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment is just contrarianism, I think. I've lived in Los Angeles my whole life and the difference that clean air standards make is obvious. The black dust isn't just tire and brake dust. It's also soot and it used to be much much worse. Nothing is a silver bullet but I'll be much happier when we're done with ICE noise and exhaust.

Generally agreed, but the noise from cars is mostly friction and turbulence (and honking/sirens). Switching to electric won't solve that.

The car noise problem is partially solved (or improved) by EVs, actually. The tires used on EVs tend to be efficient (low rolling resistance), which translates to less noisy tires. Additionally, their body shape tends to aim towards very aerodynamic so they have less turbulence noise. If they didn't do this, their efficiency would be much worse so it essentially becomes a necessity.

It's pretty evident when you drive next to a large vehicle with knobby tires meant for off-roading (Jeeps seem to commonly have these). The tire noise is easily MUCH louder, even ignoring any engine noise.

The other thing, broadly, is road construction can lead to a huge difference in noise from highways. I'm sure you've experienced huge differences depending on the road surface.

Re: Tire dust makes up the majority of ocean microplastics

#350

Post by kwhitefoot »

bmitc wrote: post #334
oatmeal1 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally agreed, but the noise from cars is mostly friction and turbulence (and honking/sirens). Switching to electric won't solve that.

> the noise from cars is mostly friction and turbulence Agreed. I can't even hear the engine in my car on the highway over tire and wind noise.

People on the outside can hear it though.
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