Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#211

Post by Jensson » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

shortrounddev2 wrote: post #199

vasco wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do unions help with those? - Do unions enforce remote work? - Do unions enforce an offer letter to turn into actual employment for someone who isn't even a member yet (they haven't signed anything)? - Do unions make people have a better handle on their mental health and do companies with unions have lower rates of burnout in their workforces?

Unions are democratic organizations. If those things are important to you, you can speak up at a union meeting

People voted not to have a union, so apparently democracy doesn't get you what you want, at least in your case.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#212

Post by dfxm12 » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #17

badcppdev wrote: post #6

I guess the trouble is that we don't have any self-admitted exploited workers. Everyone is a temporarily embarrassed Founder/CTO. With thanks to Steinback - https://hellyesjohnsteinbeck.tumblr.com/post/23486952183/com...

At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.

Give me a break with focusing on the "eventually one becomes a millionaire" bit.

How much are our bosses, Musk, Bezos, Zuck, etc. making? in Steinbeck's lifetime, CEOs made "only" 42x of what the average worker made. Today, we're up to 120x. I recognize that we have it better than people working in a cannery, but this is exploitation all the same. We're getting paid just enough to not revolt, but nowhere near what we're worth.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#213

Post by nonethewiser » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #66

frant-hartm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are on an assembly line and you have 45 s to do your job you either do it, or don't. If you do it fast and wait for 40 s you don't add any value.

> If you are on an assembly line and you have 45 s to do your job you either do it, or don't. If you do it fast and wait for 40 s you don't add any value. Have you worked on an assembly line? I have. You may not add value by doing it faster, but you certainly cause problems if you do it slower.

> You may not add value by doing it faster, but you certainly cause problems if you do it slower.

This makes his point though. There is no capacity to be 10x more productive.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#214

Post by vasco » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

screye wrote: post #207

American scale and polarization make it impossible to have moderate conversations around social tools like unions. A union doesn't need to be a mediocrity enforcing, all-encompassing beaurocracy. Programmers don't need a union to ensure fair pay or minimum hours. Our concerns are different, and a limited union can help. Eg: 1. Programmers need to be given 6 months heads up before big change in employment situation. (…

Those are law in many countries, you do not need unions for that, you need a social democracy.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#215

Post by II2II » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

Ekaros wrote: post #98

chii wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. The worst pilot only lands once, and never again.

Now what qualifies as landing?

Collect a large number of pilots, divide them into two pools based upon their performance (low and high). Which pool do you think will incur more expenses to the airline? Keep in mind that some of those costs range from reducing consumer confidence (poor landings or damaged cargo), to planes requiring more maintenance (increased costs of maintenance, planes taken out of service more often), to planes being put out of commission (regardless of whether everyone walks away or not).

A lot of people seem to be measuring value in landings per day, widgets per minute, lines of code per week without acknowledging that the quality of work does have an impact.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#216

Post by jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #184

zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, becau…

A union will make it more difficult to be hired. You can see how difficult it is to get a job a western Europe due to "working conditions" requirements.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#217

Post by MoreSEMI » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #190

abigail95 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have very very heavy lifting to do if you're trying to prove a productivity improvement leads to a worse outcome. Farming automation and the green revolution didn't make us all unemployed - it meant 90% of us could do something else instead of farming. We used the productivity to just invent new forms of work that weren't possible and aren't possible in a lower productivity economy.

“Technology will free us from a life of drudgery!” has been the promise for what, over a hundred years now? We all sit around at our leisure while robots prepare our dinner. What actually happened in agriculture is that technology enabled massive conglomerates to dominate the industry. I see few guarantees that technological progress is going to free me up to do something else that enriches my life.

“ The spoils of technology went straight to the top while workers switched to new jobs that pay horribly.”

I have a hard time believing you believe that most people switched to a worse paying job. Did peoples material quality of life improve or not?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#218

Post by zaphar » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:32 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #202

zaphar wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my family by working day labor with no certainty of continued employment. I have always been able to find a place and prove myself worthy of the pay without sacrificing my health, or family time. I've quit jobs when I no longer felt like it was the right place f…

> community support structure ...what do you think a union is? I feel as though you're imagining the Big Bad Union that big companies love to describe. A union can be in whatever form you wish it to be. If software engineers wish to band together to form a union solely to improve their health insurance then they could just do that.

I don't get to pick unions. I get to pick my community support structures. Who I marry, which church,friend group,local community group I join? Those are all voluntary. Unions are not voluntary so they can't really be a community support group in the sense I mean.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#219

Post by nonethewiser » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:32 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #125

mycologos wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the distinction is the relationship between the median performer and the 90th percentile performer. The two are very different employees for software development but not on an assembly line. As you point out, there is a difference between the median performer and the 10th percentile performer on an assembly line, but that's not the comparison the parent comment introduced.

> As you point out, there is a difference between the median performer But I didn't say that, and I don't agree. I think the 90th percentile never causes delays on a particular station, while the median may cause a few per hour, and the 10th percentile might delay every 2nd or 3rd cycle. There are tangible costs associated with those levels of performance.

This is a completely different argument though and irrelevant to the comment chain you replied to. Everyone involved may even agree with you - why did you frame it as an argument against the claim that there is less capacity for 10x performers?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#220

Post by slibhb » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 1:32 PM UTC

lapcat wrote: post #184

zaphar wrote: post #107

I don't know whether we deserve a union or not. I do know that I emphatically do not want or need one. I make the amount of money I need. I have my pick of jobs if I feel undervalued by the place I work. Under no circumstances do I want to be forced to pay dues into a union that is unlikely to represent me in the company or politically. Since I have no need or desire there is no reason for me to consider the question…

> I make the amount of money I need. It's not just about money. Working conditions are equally important. Consider when companies demand that everyone RTO after promising permanent WFH. Consider when companies rescind offer letters after you've already quit your old job. Consider mass layoffs and severance. I think about how so many engineers need to take a long, unpaid break from work after leaving their jobs, becau…

Great but for those of us who have better than adequate working conditions and enough money, please explain why we "deserve a union".

Reading through this interview and thread, I notice how often this debate comes down to a sense of agency. You write about programmers being "burned out by their employer". But I would say that people experience burnout when they fail to set boundaries. Working to the point where your mental health suffers is your fault: it's your responsbility to establish healthy boundaries or, failing at that, quit.