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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#71

Post by LtWorf »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #17
badcppdev wrote: post #6

I guess the trouble is that we don't have any self-admitted exploited workers. Everyone is a temporarily embarrassed Founder/CTO. With thanks to Steinback - https://hellyesjohnsteinbeck.tumblr.com/post/23486952183/com...

At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.

Everybody becomes a millionaire if they don't eat and don't pay rent.

Are you done repeating this false statement?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#72

Post by pydry »

frant-hartm wrote: post #61
itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

If you are on an assembly line and you have 45 s to do your job you either do it, or don't. If you do it fast and wait for 40 s you don't add any value.

Unions add the same kind of value whether you're writing a Hollywood screenplay or assembling a Tesla because you have the same relationship to capital either way.

The same divide/conquer tactic was done 100 years ago when owners of mines in Pennsylvania pitted white and black miners against each other.

The actual distinction doesn't matter to the owners provided it divides labor. Anything that makes you feel special and separates you from people in the same boat as you is fair game - whether that's the intellectual needs of your job or just plain old racism.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#73

Post by mplanchard »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

In addition to the writers’ and actors’ unions, many professional athletes are also unionized, where there is also a great deal of variance in pay and skill between the best and the worst athletes.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#74

Post by chii »

flerchin wrote: post #37
itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

The best airline pilot lands the plane the same as the worst.

Not really. The worst pilot only lands once, and never again.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#75

Post by lapcat »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power.

No, this is a common misunderstanding. Note that all professional sports have unions for athletes.

The point of labor unions is that no matter how much power you may think an individual worker has, it's always relatively small and vastly surpassed by the power and money of the business ownership.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#76

Post by jampekka »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

Companies do commoditize software development by for example pushing technologies that cater to the least experienced common denominator.

Bondage and discipline languages are a good example of this. It's typically the main rationale for their advocation, although stated perhaps a bit differently.

It follows quite obviously from the profit motive that companies want to minimize salaries, labour bargaining power and dependence on individuals. These, especially the latter, apply to the "10x" as well.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#77

Post by iteria »

ownagefool wrote: post #35
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

It's a decent take. But taking a view on markets outside of the US and SV/bigtech in particular, those 10x devs aren't usually getting the 2-3x as much, and taking a view of industry in total, profits are runaway but wages are flat and falling, especially when considering inflation. Capital is winning. Perhaps unions are required. But I'm not a union member and likely never will be.

Is that true? I am only a dataset of one, but while my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up. We can say that employers should reward employees who stay, but in an industry where getting your next job is trivial (in my experience anyway), I just say sucks to be those companies when I take my institutional knowledge with me. Also it's been my experience that remote work has put real pressure on local companies to pay higher than they did before the pandemic.

I work in the Atlanta Metro, so it's not like it's a place you think of when you think tech.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#78

Post by wil421 »

flerchin wrote: post #37
itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

The best airline pilot lands the plane the same as the worst.

The best airline pilots get the best routes for the best airlines and are mostly retired military. At the other end you have cargo pilots and regional flights that carry a brand of major airline but are operated by a different company.

Look at salary differences.

https://www.thepilotguys.com/blog/airline-pilot-salary

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#79

Post by dimva »

bazooka wrote: post #43
jandrewrogers wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.

Hot take. It’s also untrue. Software developers overall are not millionaires. I am discounting non-liquid assets like the main residence.

Why are you discounting real wealth? I am a millionaire. If I spent my millions on buying a modest house in Palo Alto, does that mean I am no longer a millionaire? Have I lost all my wealth just by purchasing a home?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#80

Post by mmmmmbop »

bazooka wrote: post #43
jandrewrogers wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.

Hot take. It’s also untrue. Software developers overall are not millionaires. I am discounting non-liquid assets like the main residence.

> I am discounting non-liquid assets like the main residence.

That's pretty unusual. Do you consider someone with $1.5M but no house considerably better off than someone with $500k and a $1M house?

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